What Flow Through?

[algflyr]

Rico, and everyone else at the WO's had the same opportunity, to make their choice of whether to chase the jet dream at MDA or keep thieir current turboprop positions. This was all based on the information we had at the time.

To me and many other WO pilots, without the MDA contract, flow up/down provisions, and everything else, in writing, it was an easy choice to stay where we were. Those that chose to chase the dream, with all the unanswered questions and what-ifs, made their own choice.

So here we are today. Some a little upset because they chose to jump on what appeared to be a easy way to mainline, and those of us who would not go anywhere without every question answered in writing. Each had the opportunity to make their own decision. Each must live with their choice.

Did anyone come out ahead? Apparently not. I'm still flying around in my old Dash, at less than I made years ago, and the MDA guys are upset because no one claims to represent them, neither mainline nor the WO's.

People, you made the choice. Live with the outcome. Take responsibility for your actions. It is not always someone else's fault that things did not turn out the way you dreamed.

By the way Rico, I would have been way senior to you. I could care less if you flowed up or down. You made the choice. Just stop trying to put the blame on everyone else.

Just as a side note to start, I know that if Rico would have stayed at ALG, he would have over 10 yrs there. Are you really that much senior to him?? I was there almost 9 yrs and there were only about 400 pilots senior to me on the CEL and Rico is one of them. You can't be that much more senior. Just FYI. Anyway on to this post...

I agree everyone that went to MDA did it for their own personal reasons. At the time we went, MDA was to get about 85 airframes. Upgrade for CEL pilots would have been about a year or two. Since we got our longevity for pay, it would have been a great deal. Much more than we would have made in the Dash. But we all know that changed in BK. The planes were gonna get sold.

LOA 91 is how we went to MDA. That LOA also said we could flow back to PDT if MDA furloughed. That was not open for discussion, it's in there. What was not written, was exactly how the flow-down would work. From our stand point, we fully expect to keep our seniority coming back to PDT. Originally, any CEL that flowed after me and was senior on the CEL list, would be senior to me at MDA even though I was there first. That was the deal, we all knew it and accepted it. It is only right that if we flowed down, we also keep our seniority. But the mechanism to actually flow back was never hammered out. That is where the WO MEC failed. They should have made the deal with the company when the first hint of MDA furloughs surfaced, but they did nothing. And why should they, MDA was going away, nothing for them to flow into right? Well what they failed to realize was that the remaining orders for they 85 170's were convertible to 190's. Those aircraft are still coming. Now that we know that, the WO MEC says wait a minute, we still want to flow up into those. Hummm, why the change of heart? Too little, too late, sorry...

So was it worth it? Well, I am furloughed now and will remain so until I get my recall letter to the 190. That should be sometime next year. What I also got was a number on the ML seniority list. I will be included in integration with America West. I'm not happy to be out of the cockpit now, but I still think I made the right choice. I am young enough that when I turn 60, there will only 350 pilots senior to me on the seniority list. That is worth more than staying at PDT to me. There are some CEL pilots that came to MDA that will retire number 1. Wow, that is a good deal. Certainly worth being furloughed for a year.

Can the flow-thru be saved? Not in the form it was supposed to be. If a new deal is worked out, Every WO pilot that flows will have to accept being junior to everyone that went to MDA. I would personally like to see a flow-thru agreement worked out. I still have a lot of friends at PDT that never had the chance to come over to MDA. I would like to see them come over here. It still may be possible to work out an agreement with the company, but the WO MEC needs to be careful what they ask for. They must be realistic. Good luck....

 

[algflyr]

Just so it's clear about our flow-back rights:

LOA 91 Attachment B, under the section titled "Flows between carriers", second bullet point (Pg 14 of LOA 91) it says:

"Pilots employed by a Participating Wholly Owned Carrier who become MDA pilots or US Airways pilots under this attachment B may flow back to their respective Participating Wholly Owned Carrier."

That gives us the right to go back. It says nothing about losing seniority going backwards. We were to remain in CEL order both directions of flow. Since every single CEL pilot that went to MDA came from Piedmont, everyone should have the right to go back to Piedmont. What was not worked out was how that was to happen. Could we displace junior pilots, or would we have to wait for openings? Those were issues the WO MEC should have hammered out.

The second part of the same bullet point states:

"US Airways pilots employed by MDA, if furloughed from MDA, may displace into positions at Participating Wholly Owned Carriers in order of their seniority as US Airways pilots in accordance with the Flow Through Letter of Agreement (LOA #_tbd_) to be agreed to by the company and the association."

Note that this part that references a LOA to be determined only addresses US Airways pilots at MDA, NOT CEL pilots at MDA. The CEL right to flow back was already there in the first part of the paragraph.

 

[Rico]

Rico, and everyone else at the WO's had the same opportunity, to make their choice of whether to chase the jet dream at MDA or keep thieir current turboprop positions. This was all based on the information we had at the time.

To me and many other WO pilots, without the MDA contract, flow up/down provisions, and everything else, in writing, it was an easy choice to stay where we were. Those that chose to chase the dream, with all the unanswered questions and what-ifs, made their own choice.

So here we are today. Some a little upset because they chose to jump on what appeared to be a easy way to mainline, and those of us who would not go anywhere without every question answered in writing. Each had the opportunity to make their own decision. Each must live with their choice.

Did anyone come out ahead? Apparently not. I'm still flying around in my old Dash, at less than I made years ago, and the MDA guys are upset because no one claims to represent them, neither mainline nor the WO's.

People, you made the choice. Live with the outcome. Take responsibility for your actions. It is not always someone else's fault that things did not turn out the way you dreamed.

By the way Rico, I would have been way senior to you. I could care less if you flowed up or down. You made the choice. Just stop trying to put the blame on everyone else.

Are you saying I am supposed to blame myself for the lack of effort from PDT and PSA to secure the bi-directional flow...?

Ok, Thanks. Great Advice...

My point was never that I should have had "better information" to make an initial choice (to go to fly the E-170), rather that the W/O piots should not be surprised that it is so difficult to get a flow thru program anymore after the way things went down this last year.

IMO what has happened has happened, and now it is too late to try and offer positions to people that no longer want them (just beacuse the PDT and PSA pilots want another chance at going upwards).

You said it best, with what happened already, everyone at the W/O's should just "Live with the outcome"



BTW, knowing what I know now, I would have made the same choice in a heartbeat pal.

 

[Phoenix]

US Airways got rid of their DC9s, F100s, F28s... and at the same time went out and acquired brand-new turbojet aircraft to replace them -- Then would not allow their US Airways division employees to fly them!

US Airways did not buy them. The employees of US Airways were fleeced and the retirees were not exempt in the least. Neither were any of those who were unlucky enough to be doing business with a two time bankrupt carrier.