OP
PropPiedmont
Senior
- Dec 10, 2003
- 273
- 0
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #16
Are you doing it now?
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What Flow Through?
- Thread starter PropPiedmont
- Start date
Are you doing it now?
careerfurloughee
Advanced
- Apr 7, 2004
- 233
- 0
No. Your point?
As usual, the myopic viewpoint of some people caused by self-centered and self imposed ignorance never ceases to amaze me.
1. JFJ was the sweetest deal EVER for you PSA pilots. After your MEC stabbed the other two W/O's in the back (twice), you made off with a brand new fleet of larger, jet-powered, and better paying aircraft for the SMALL cost of having to share said aircraft (with what turned out to be a LOT smaller precentage of mainline pilots than what was advertised).
And now you complain... :angry:
Explain to me how exactly that deal did not work to your total advantage sport.
2. JFJ is not a Flow Thru.
JFJ is a sharing of positions created by NEW flying and NEW aircraft added to your fleet. You did not "give" up anything with JFJ. Mainline Pilots were the ones that GAVE you (and the other JFJ carriers) that flying, and all they got in return was some of the many positions created.
Let me put it to you this way, would you rather have not had any JFJ, and only been left with your fleet of boneyard DO-328's...?
Thought so.
3. A flow thru is a program of bi-directional movement that allows for said movement up AND DOWN.
Sure... You "shared" some positions when it meant shiny new aircraft added to your fleet. But later on, whe mainline pilots needed some of the flying that YOUR MEC agreed to share, those furloughed pilots were denied positions and pulled right out of class so some junior kid could get his/her upgrade at PSA instead.
4. And before you PDT types get all high and mighty, the promise to yoiur former co-workers was if you go up, you can come back with senority if things went bad. But as soon as the need for flowing back came about, the ability to do so did not exist, esp. returning with senority and position.
Sure... Lots of finger pointing and excuse making from you guys, but the reality is that the VERY SAME reason that the MDA guys could not flow back is the very SAME reason you cannot flow up anymore.
I hear the same code-a-phones that talk all about negotiations to get this, and talks to get that. But the fact is that both the PSA and the PDT MEC's let the one real chance to make a flow thru a reality at US Airways slip away.
Not accepting furloughees for backfill PSA JFJ jobs, or hiding behind "The Company" at PDT (waiting for Republic to take the furloughed MDA pilots instead) and then afterwards "working to create a spot for em" is BS.
So basically IMHO, both the PSA and PDT pilots can both hold their breath until they turn blue in the face while waiting for a flow through to happen.
Being as BOTH of your pilot groups did nothing but gain from the JFJ and MDA programs, you each have nothing to complain about.
PDT gave nothing for, and PSA gave no more than the other JFJ carriers (who did not have a chance at a flow thru). So In my book you got what you deserved when it comes to having no flow.
No sacrifice = no gain.
I like to call it "Aviation Karma"
1. JFJ was the sweetest deal EVER for you PSA pilots. After your MEC stabbed the other two W/O's in the back (twice), you made off with a brand new fleet of larger, jet-powered, and better paying aircraft for the SMALL cost of having to share said aircraft (with what turned out to be a LOT smaller precentage of mainline pilots than what was advertised).
And now you complain... :angry:
Explain to me how exactly that deal did not work to your total advantage sport.
2. JFJ is not a Flow Thru.
JFJ is a sharing of positions created by NEW flying and NEW aircraft added to your fleet. You did not "give" up anything with JFJ. Mainline Pilots were the ones that GAVE you (and the other JFJ carriers) that flying, and all they got in return was some of the many positions created.
Let me put it to you this way, would you rather have not had any JFJ, and only been left with your fleet of boneyard DO-328's...?
Thought so.
3. A flow thru is a program of bi-directional movement that allows for said movement up AND DOWN.
Sure... You "shared" some positions when it meant shiny new aircraft added to your fleet. But later on, whe mainline pilots needed some of the flying that YOUR MEC agreed to share, those furloughed pilots were denied positions and pulled right out of class so some junior kid could get his/her upgrade at PSA instead.
4. And before you PDT types get all high and mighty, the promise to yoiur former co-workers was if you go up, you can come back with senority if things went bad. But as soon as the need for flowing back came about, the ability to do so did not exist, esp. returning with senority and position.
Sure... Lots of finger pointing and excuse making from you guys, but the reality is that the VERY SAME reason that the MDA guys could not flow back is the very SAME reason you cannot flow up anymore.
I hear the same code-a-phones that talk all about negotiations to get this, and talks to get that. But the fact is that both the PSA and the PDT MEC's let the one real chance to make a flow thru a reality at US Airways slip away.
Not accepting furloughees for backfill PSA JFJ jobs, or hiding behind "The Company" at PDT (waiting for Republic to take the furloughed MDA pilots instead) and then afterwards "working to create a spot for em" is BS.
So basically IMHO, both the PSA and PDT pilots can both hold their breath until they turn blue in the face while waiting for a flow through to happen.
Being as BOTH of your pilot groups did nothing but gain from the JFJ and MDA programs, you each have nothing to complain about.
PDT gave nothing for, and PSA gave no more than the other JFJ carriers (who did not have a chance at a flow thru). So In my book you got what you deserved when it comes to having no flow.
No sacrifice = no gain.
I like to call it "Aviation Karma"
That's funny coming from an IAM guy.
I guess I should take lessons on inter-union behavior from your peaceful and cooperative working relationship with fellow co-workers...?
Sure thing.
careerfurloughee
Advanced
- Apr 7, 2004
- 233
- 0
That's funny coming form an IAM guy. I guess I should take lessons on inter-union behavior from your peaceful and cooperative working relationship with fellow co-workers...?
Sure thing.
ROTFLMAO
Furloughedagain
Senior
I agree with Rico 100%.
J4J was win/win for the PSA pilots. No question about it. They were flying an orphan fleet of aircraft that was destined for the boneyard.
They replaced their fleet with brand-new jet-aircraft, and doubled the size of that fleet.
US Airways got rid of their DC9s, F100s, F28s... and at the same time went out and acquired brand-new turbojet aircraft to replace them -- Then would not allow their US Airways division employees to fly them!
In exchange for their brand-spanking new fleet of shiny jets the PSA pilots had to share the flying with some of those who they were replacing... and, like Rico said, a much smaller number of pilots than originally expected took them up on it!
In 2002 the PSA pilot group was a very young group that had experienced lightning fast upgrades. Now, just a few years later they are almost ALL Captains on 50,70, and perhaps 90 seat jets!?!
Perhaps they would have liked circumstances to be different. They might have liked 100% of the seats and growth. That's fine. The 1800+ furloughees might have liked to keep their jobs and continue to fly narrowbody equipment for USAir.
Of the two, I'd say the PSA pilots got the better end of the deal.
J4J was win/win for the PSA pilots. No question about it. They were flying an orphan fleet of aircraft that was destined for the boneyard.
They replaced their fleet with brand-new jet-aircraft, and doubled the size of that fleet.
US Airways got rid of their DC9s, F100s, F28s... and at the same time went out and acquired brand-new turbojet aircraft to replace them -- Then would not allow their US Airways division employees to fly them!
In exchange for their brand-spanking new fleet of shiny jets the PSA pilots had to share the flying with some of those who they were replacing... and, like Rico said, a much smaller number of pilots than originally expected took them up on it!
In 2002 the PSA pilot group was a very young group that had experienced lightning fast upgrades. Now, just a few years later they are almost ALL Captains on 50,70, and perhaps 90 seat jets!?!
Perhaps they would have liked circumstances to be different. They might have liked 100% of the seats and growth. That's fine. The 1800+ furloughees might have liked to keep their jobs and continue to fly narrowbody equipment for USAir.
Of the two, I'd say the PSA pilots got the better end of the deal.
That's nice.
I have not been on USAviation.com for awhile. I must be using a older version of the forum.
I see a "reply to topic" button on the bottom of my screen, but no "hijack this topic" button like you seem to have.
BTW, no IAM when I AM.
Love it.
Nice try. PSA has no choice but to accept J4J with any new jet aircraft. If they "boot off" the J4J pilots by stopping their participation in J4J, they will lose the scope relief that gave them the ability to fly ANY jets in the first place... No J4J pilots at PSA equals no Jets for PSA. Pretty simple really...
OP
PropPiedmont
Senior
- Dec 10, 2003
- 273
- 0
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #27
Rico,
I understand where your bitterness comes from and I'm sorry you feel the way you do about PDT/ALG pilots. You and I have both had the carrot dangling out infront of us for many years. You got a little closer to the carrot than most PDT/ALG pilots will ever get.
As for the J4J program, it doesn't mean squat to anyone at PDT anymore. We were promised jets for concessions and they never showed up. No jets, no jets for jobs. Then came the whole MDA debacle. User beware. There were a lot of people that passed it up for various reasons. There were also a lot of guys that jumped on it for various reasons. Regardless, it didn't work out for anyone. There isn't one US Air, PDT, PSA, or ALG pilot happy with what happened.
Now, the carrot dangles again with the flow through. At this point, PDT has been beat down so many times over so many years that we are not hopeful about anything good happening. If it makes your day when the flow is dissolved, then atleast one person will have a smile on his/her face.
Don't worry I'm sure you'll get to play with a new shiny toy soon and, of course, I will make sure you get to touch it first.
I understand where your bitterness comes from and I'm sorry you feel the way you do about PDT/ALG pilots. You and I have both had the carrot dangling out infront of us for many years. You got a little closer to the carrot than most PDT/ALG pilots will ever get.
As for the J4J program, it doesn't mean squat to anyone at PDT anymore. We were promised jets for concessions and they never showed up. No jets, no jets for jobs. Then came the whole MDA debacle. User beware. There were a lot of people that passed it up for various reasons. There were also a lot of guys that jumped on it for various reasons. Regardless, it didn't work out for anyone. There isn't one US Air, PDT, PSA, or ALG pilot happy with what happened.
Now, the carrot dangles again with the flow through. At this point, PDT has been beat down so many times over so many years that we are not hopeful about anything good happening. If it makes your day when the flow is dissolved, then atleast one person will have a smile on his/her face.
Don't worry I'm sure you'll get to play with a new shiny toy soon and, of course, I will make sure you get to touch it first.
Yawn.
Wrong thread topic Napoleon.
Just accept your burn, and wait for another chance another day...
supercruiser
Advanced
- Dec 5, 2002
- 213
- 11
700UW, Stick to IAM stuff, as in this case you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. US management always had and has today, the opportunity to put any type of aircraft on the mainline. Yes at one time Gangwal did announce that they were going to put RJ's on the mainline, but it wasn't ALPA that stopped them. I challenge you to provide any proof otherwise. They were never serious about that. What they intended all along was to outsource all the RJ's and related jobs (gate, ticket counter, dispatch, ramp, mx, etc).
Furthermore, I don't see any real name calling or insulting done by Rico in this thread. Looks like everything he says is basically true. Certainly nothing blatant that requires a post by you of all people to challenge his credibility.
