USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[exB717Flyer]

So, do you think the video showed the mind of someone you want running your union, that's why you voted for him?

Strange thing about the internet: people aren't always the same in person as they are behind their keyboards. I know David Schoppaul personally. I voted for him because he best represents my interests and his mind is just fine.

 

[Waketurbulence]

So, do you think the video showed the mind of someone you want running your union, that's why you voted for him?

You want to see the minds of who is running usapa? Read the transcripts!

It makes the east posters on this board look like saints!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Unlike pilots there are no simulators for trail lawyers.

Interesting. What is "moot court" then? (Notice, I didn't say "mute court"!)

If there isn't a "trial attorney simulator," then some entrepreneurial JD should invent one.

 

[cubfan]

While you are spending your time talking about a video that no longer exist, have you taken any time to read any of the transcripts or are you going to stay un-informed and just wait for the courts decision?

usapa has NO defense other than to deflect the responsibility to others.

I did watch days 1-4, nothing earth shattering from either side, I hope to get a chance to read this weeks. The west may get the NIC but I think that will be it. I always thought in order to DFR you had to do something, I don't think anything has been done yet. The DOH was a contract proposal, but nothing has happened either way, not because USAPA isn't trying, it's just that MGT. wants a MESA contract, I would rather stay with LOA93.

 

[ussnark]

.... it's just that MGT. wants a MESA contract, I would rather stay with LOA93.

Let the west take the "nic" and a MESA contract, the east stays with DOH and 93, which expires in seven months.

 

[700UW]

CBAs dont expire under the RLA they become amendable.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I did watch days 1-4, nothing earth shattering from either side, I hope to get a chance to read this weeks. The west may get the NIC but I think that will be it. I always thought in order to DFR you had to do something, I don't think anything has been done yet. The DOH was a contract proposal, but nothing has happened either way, not because USAPA isn't trying, it's just that MGT. wants a MESA contract, I would rather stay with LOA93.

If you can read the transcripts from Monday, I am not sure what they are called but it was housekeeping stuff outside of the jury, Seham is trying desperately to convince Judge Wake of this point. Judge Wake clearly articulates what this whole scuffle is about. In not so many words... USAPA failed it's DFR the moment it was elected as the CBA. Why/How? Obviously USAPA was/is going to continue what the east MEC had started by attempting to circumvent a final and binding arbitration award... Judge Wake eloquently states a CBA cannot do that. Even if you change unions. Sorry I could not do better explaining it but I am sure others will offer a better synopsis of what was said. Suffice it to say Seham wants this to be about the fairness of the Nic but we are way past that...

 

[Tiger 1050]

CBAs dont expire under the RLA they become amendable.

Exactly! This is why the east will not see any snapback IMO. Unless I missed some language that specifically states wages will be returned to the previously agreed to rate. All I read is a date essentially. A date the rates become amendable. For the record I hope they get it. They helped keep their airline above the water long enough to end up in this situation they are in now (pick your poison eh? LOL!). They deserve something. However I suspect that the level of emotional rationalization the east appears capable of will surely set them up for yet another disappointment...

 

[nic4us]

USAPA failed it's DFR the moment it was elected as the CBA. Why/How? Obviously USAPA was/is going to continue what the east MEC had started by attempting to circumvent a final and binding arbitration award... Judge Wake eloquently states a CBA cannot do that. Even if you change unions.

Where in the transcripts did you read this..... a page number please....

This is what the West has been saying all along, at the roadshow, in correspondence etc. I would like to read where the Judge informs Seham.

 

[ussnark]

CBAs dont expire under the RLA they become amendable.

It is an amendment to a CBA that expires and not the CBA.

 

[prechilill]

Reports coming in from the courthouse: Theuer is getting destroyed by Harper; Seham and Brengle are in another frenzy and admonished again by the judge; Wake stated he is going immediately into the bench trial for damages once this jury trial conclude.
It looks like USAPA is hurting.

 

[nycbusdriver]

CBAs dont expire under the RLA they become amendable.

LOAs can and do expire. This is a negotiating tactic used to great effect by the (original) Piedmont MEC. The CBA specified and 80 hour month, but they always signed an LOA allowing 85 hours. When the contract became amendable, the LOA automatically went bye-bye and we went immediately to the CBA work rules of 80 hours. That was a HUGE hammer in contract negotiations. I don't think we ever went past an amendable date because the company couldn't staff the airline for an 80 hour month.

LOA 93, in particular, has a specific expiration date for the pay rates.

LOA does not equal CBA.

 

[hp_fa]

Interesting. What is "moot court" then? (Notice, I didn't say "mute court"!)

If there isn't a "trial attorney simulator," then some entrepreneurial JD should invent one.

Moot courts, in my experience, are not a simulator in the same way I made reference to an aircraft sim. Feel free to correct me about the aircraft sim, but I have read many times that the sims are so life like that pilots at the end of the sim are often sweating quite a bit because the situations and the simulator itself are so lifelike.

I would contend that moot courts, used in law school training and/or in simulating what would be expected at a trial of a dead person are not the same. There is no feeling in them that can simulate what it is to appear before a real judge and/or a real jury with real consequences to the losing party.

Why do you think actual attorneys, at least in firms of more than five or so attorneys, don't let new attorneys loose without a lot of real trial viewing and second or third seat participation to prepare them for the real thing?

 

[700UW]

LOAs can and do expire. This is a negotiating tactic used to great effect by the (original) Piedmont MEC. The CBA specified and 80 hour month, but they always signed an LOA allowing 85 hours. When the contract became amendable, the LOA automatically went bye-bye and we went immediately to the CBA work rules of 80 hours. That was a HUGE hammer in contract negotiations. I don't think we ever went past an amendable date because the company couldn't staff the airline for an 80 hour month.

LOA 93, in particular, has a specific expiration date for the pay rates.

LOA does not equal CBA.

LOAs are part of your CBA, go read it, its in the same book, just like all the other unions and their LOAs

 

[hp_fa]

I always thought in order to DFR you had to do something, I don't think anything has been done yet.

I believe that an action can be proved by an actual action or the lack of an actual action otherwise required or expected. I believe there is ample case law to substantiate that belief.

The problem, in a nutshell, is that East (ALPA or USAPA) never attempted to put Nicolau into Section 22 and try to agree to the rest of the contract and submit it for ratification. All the Court has before it is speculation that the contract would have not been ratified by East, however that speculation does not make it a fact. There is evidence in the record that East shut down negotiations regarding Nicolau and then moved to the issue of pay parity. The East never placed the Kirby Proposal, valued by the Company at $122 million, in front of the parties for a vote. The Company clearly offered pay parity in the context of being included in a full CBA.

Had East combined Nicolau and the Kirby economic numbers into a proposed contract and submitted it for ratification and the contract was subsequently voted down then East (USAPA) would have been in far better position in the Addington litigation then where it currently finds itself.