USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

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THE COURT: But as I think about this at times, Mr. Stevens, it seemed to me that if the plaintiff prevails, the remedy is an injunction that orders the union to negotiate for the Nicolau Award. And I can't think of any other remedy.

No proven loss = no damages, at least none that you got from USAPA actions, unless youve been following some other case. Maybe the judge holds a remedy over our heads. Hes already spelled out as far as he can go. the remedy is an injunction that orders the union to negotiate for the Nicolau Award. And I can't think of any other remedy Maybe he holds damages over our heads. Damages for what? Your own witnesses say we werent stalling.

Snoop are you sure that you are not Lee Seham? Even in the face of the facts you keep swinging. Did you not understand that the DAMAGES portion of this trial has not happened yet. That will be an entirely different trial and set of evidence. If you are still confused about this call Seham he can explain it to you.

Pay close attention here. The remedy portion has not been heard yet. So the judge has not figured out how far he can go yet. We should know something by Wednesday.

Then why did hp say “I haven't forgotten, however, as I said on Thurday, Seham had a point and the Court was paying attentionâ€￾ You cant have it both ways, Clear.

Paying attention yes. Decision made, NO! Of course he is paying attention. Other wise you all would be screaming bloody murder that you are not getting a fair shake. One more time the bench trial is Wednesday. Last Thursday after the jury left was a short discussion nothing more.

Under NIC, Wargocky gets close. In fact with NIC, hed get WB line FO with the 12 A-330s coming in the next 18 months. Hes 29 now. Remember, hes the guy who smart-mouthed:

So Mr. Wellenkotter was hired in May of 1988, and you were born in 1979. So when Mr. Wellenkotter was hired, you were, well, it was May. You were about to celebrate your ninth
birthday, correct?
A. Yes. That's a true statement. I didn't realize it was a bad thing to be hired at a young age.

That was a cringer for the jury and a real hit back East in the briefing room before my last crossing. Not one of his finest moments on the stand. Day 6, p 303 if you need to look it up.

Just as I thought. Mischaracterizing facts or flat making them up.

I fly with these guys. They dont want a smart-mouthed 28-year-old know-it-all FO/IRO displacing a 21-year seniority, never been furloughed 50-year-old. Family is important. We have a family here back East. But if your talking about immediate family, that extra $1M (+/-) takes out the sting even if we lose the LOA-93 automatic pay raise and stay single for the next 5 or 10 years.

So you disprove your own premise with your answer. You aren’t even trying anymore. You admit that he is currently 29, over your goal then go on to say at the very least it will be another 18 months. Makes him at least 30. Don’t forget that he is very near the bottom of the Nicolau list. If he can hold your precious WB Int. With a ratio of two east and one west that means that almost all of the east active F/O could sit in that seat before our young’in.

You consider it mouthy to ask the question if it is bad to be young. What do you consider a 55 year old man being arrogant on the stand?


Q. Under your list, those furloughed -- excuse me -- those
recalled East Pilots would be protected from furloughs by the
East Pilots -- the West Pilots below them. Right?

A. Mr. Stevens, you and I are not kids anymore.

THE COURT: Counsel, please listen -- I mean Captain
May 7, 2009 - Jury Trial - Day 8 - Testimony of Randal Mowrey
1676
Mowrey. Please listen to the question, take it in mind and
answer the question as asked.

The judge had to admonish Randy Mowrey. Mature? Forthcoming? Typical usapa leadership behavior.

Well, were all "above average" especially since no retirement outside PBGC. The top of the list that I fly with isnt going to cave for a pittance, especially if it means flying with your Wargocky types. As 1 CA put it,this is supposed to be a low-stress, fun job. The top of the list isnt flying at $124/hour. Theyr well north of your $144/hour flat rate for all equipment. The Kirby proposal wasnt close to 23% for them. How did you ever negotiate flat rate? Not even CAL or UPS do that any more.

Q. And assuming a retirement age of 63, and the reason I'm
doing that is that a lot of guys don't make it to 65. I think
the actuaries figure around 62.7, but let's round it up to 63.
Is that all right with you?

Jim Brengle usapa lawyer. Are you saying that he was misstating facts in this trial?

Have it your way. As hp observed: "Seham had a point and the Court was paying attentionâ€￾
But if there settlement negotiations, 2 plaintiffs are furloughed, 1 downgraded and 2 chomping at the bit to upgrade. Some class representatives there! All 5 with axes to grind that could conflict with the rest of your "career expectations." Regardless whether this negotiated or ruled, none of the 5 are moving up any time soon.

Okay! Are you still arguing the class action part? The court thinks they are good representatives Go figure.

No, theyr going east. Weve got the routes. But then, your losing all but 2 of your ETOPS 757s by the end of the year. So, east A-330s to HNL? AH! A violation of the TA. Well get right on that arbitration. Snooper-sized

I feel better now. As long as usapa is protecting the west I am good. Go get the company and keep our contractual rights.

 

[traderjake]

Furthermore, a list isn't a list until it is defined in a contract. The first sentence in section 22, yours and ours, defines the lists, respectively - "The system seniority list shall be the list contained in this agreement..." or words to that effect.

We have a seniority list.

The company acknowledged accepting it.

It has not been implemented yet.

The only way to change it is to negotiate the changes.

 

[jetjok1]

If they're still working for US, as apparently they are if you're flying with them, they don't get the PBGC retirement checks. Once they've severed the relationship with US they start drawing the PBGC retirement.

Jim

BB, I don't believe that is true. I've talked to at least one current Captain still flying and has activated his PBGC and has received payments.

 

[nostradamus]

If they're still working for US, as apparently they are if you're flying with them, they don't get the PBGC retirement checks. Once they've severed the relationship with US they start drawing the PBGC retirement.

Jim

Any US Airways pilot that has turned 60 and are still actively employed by US Airways may collect their pbgc check, most are. Under the age of 60, you can not unless you sever relationship with the company.

 

[cleardirect]

BB, I don't believe that is true. I've talked to at least one current Captain still flying and has activated his PBGC and has received payments.

Working while receiving your pension

PBGC does not pay pension benefits to workers who continue to be employed by the company that had sponsored the pension plan. If you wish to start drawing your pension benefit, you must first terminate your employment with the company. However, there is an exception to this rule. When you reach your normal retirement age, you may start drawing your pension benefit even if you are still working for the sponsoring company.

http://www.pbgc.gov/workers-retirees/find-...n_19933400.html

PBGC Maximum Monthly Guarantees for 2009*
Age 2009 Straight-Life Annuity 2009 Joint and 50% Survivor Annuity**
65 $4,500.00 $4,050.00
64 $4,185.00 $3,766.50
63 $3,870.00 $3,483.00
62 $3,555.00 $3,199.50
61 $3,240.00 $2,916.00
60 $2,925.00 $2,632.50

 

[EastUS]

If they're still working for US, as apparently they are if you're flying with them, they don't get the PBGC retirement checks. Once they've severed the relationship with US they start drawing the PBGC retirement.

Jim

Wrong. "time for remedial" PBGC "101". Once the retirement age is achieved; one can start drawing benefits even if still working for the company.

PS: Nevermind. I see that another poster has addressed this.

 

[nycbusdriver]

BB, I don't believe that is true. I've talked to at least one current Captain still flying and has activated his PBGC and has received payments.

I've flown with 2 over-60 f/o's who are collecting their retirement checks while they fly. I suppose it has to do with how the whole thing was worded, i.e. start collecting at 60, rather than after retirement.

Let's see if BB can do a web search and find a way to take it away from them.

I do agree that if this case does go on appeal, which is a near certainty, ...

Several weeks ago a few of us east pilots here conjectured that this case would certainly go to appeal. We were "shot down," I believe with your legal expertise that going to appeal could only happen under procedural grounds. Now, you are saying the same thing we told you weeks ago. What are the procedural grounds?

 

[BoeingBoy]

However, there is an exception to this rule. When you reach your normal retirement age, you may start drawing your pension benefit even if you are still working for the sponsoring company.

I hadn't seen this exception before - probably because it didn't apply to me. I guess it depends on how the PBGC defines "normal retirement age" - as defined in the East contract (60) or as specified by the mandatory retirement age (65).

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

Several weeks ago a few of us east pilots here conjectured that this case would certainly go to appeal. We were "shot down," I believe with your legal expertise that going to appeal could only happen under procedural grounds. Now, you are saying the same thing we told you weeks ago. What are the procedural grounds?

No one has filed yet so we don't know.

The losing side will file a Notice of Appeal and draft a brief to the 9th Circuit. That party will be known as the Appellant. The other side will fill a responsive document and that party will be know as the Appellee. The grounds must be some form of reversible error, whether evidenciary rulings or the Court's ruling on the law.

Once the Judge signs the final Judgment, the clock will start to click on the filing of the Notice of Appeal. Some filings will toll the running of the appellate clock, but not many and not for long.

If you are referring to my past comments on the interlocutory appeal that had been filed and turned down by the 9th Circuit, those are almost always turned down, including when one is filed regarding status as a Class Action.

Does that help at all?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Let's see if BB can do a web search and find a way to take it away from them.

Can't let a chance to make it personal slip away?

As I said above, I hadn't seen that exception before, so was going mainly by what was discussed at the PBGC roadshows. At that time they said you had to sever the employee relationship to get the payments.

One person could misunderstand what someone else said about receiving benefits, but enough people have posted the same info that a misunderstanding is unlikely. So it appears that the PBGC is using the contract's definition of normal retirement age to start benefits.

Like I've said before, I'm not always correct and it doesn't bother me a bit to admit when I'm wrong.

Jim

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop, had you missed this link from Thursday? Link.

Must have jet lag to miss THAT one, TP.

The reason I am so touchy is that I have tried to be very careful with my credibility in discussing what I have observed and making sure that personal opinions have been clearly identified. Why should that matter to me on an anonymous web board? I can't answer that except to say my personal credibility always matters to me. I can, do and will make mistakes. However I don't think I have made any about what I have seen and reported.

TP, with an anonymous board, you could be a tag team of west RES agents fed by Don Stevens for all we know. As I said, I agreed with you on the judge taking notice. Besides, this is a chat board. If you say something I like, I take it out of context and use it. If you say something I dont like, I take that out of context and use it. All the price of anonymity. Im a bit more thick-skinned about this and dont claim any credibility anyway.

Id give slight odds favorite to the west right now. Judge being overturned? Id say we have the odds there. But dont count out a settlement, ala the judges "thinking out loud." Thats one guy who doesnt want his long-term finger-prints on this, nor wants to deal with a reversal, or worse yet, the 9th Circuit handing this typhoid mary back to him. For sure, Wargocki and Iranpour arent getting their jobs back any time soon unless we win the arbitrations. No way Wake can pull that off. I hope we win, hope they come back, because a rising tide lifts all boats. I get better lines when I get those senior pukes younger than me get off Intl IRO and bid A320 CA.

Sir Snoop: Could you please do us a favor and refer to the "automatic" pay raise as to what it really is: a RESTORATION. LOA 93 modified existing rates of pay. That modification ends 12/31/09, as you know. The rate of pay restores to pre-existing rates.

Yeah, automatic RESTORATION works for me. RLA contracts never expire. They just become amendable. But various pieces of them are automatic, like anniversary pay raises, vacation increases, per diem increases or automatic RESTORATION of pay. Ok, Kirby turns us down, we go to arbitration. We win, whats Kirby to do? Explain it in Federal Court? Hey maybe we get lucky and draw Wake!

That's why Scotch Kirby doesn't understand it; the terminology used has been incorrect. Nobody who negotiated this, sold it at the roadshows (I was there) or signed it ever expected it to be in force at the end. Something was going to happen along the way.
Nothing ever did.
Thank you for your excellent postings.
692

I remember that from road shows too, an old Cohen and Simon guy selling RESTORATION. Thats before I pulled the plug on ALPA. Actually, that "something" that never happened was doing CH-7. ALPA, the Crystal City Palace, Glass or MEC never thought wed survive long enough for the company to make good. 7 years later, looks like they have to. snooper-size that with fries

 

[Elevation]

Sir Snoop: Could you please do us a favor and refer to the "automatic" pay raise as to what it really is: a RESTORATION. LOA 93 modified existing rates of pay. That modification ends 12/31/09, as you know. The rate of pay restores to pre-existing rates.
That's why Scotch Kirby doesn't understand it; the terminology used has been incorrect. Nobody who negotiated this, sold it at the roadshows (I was there) or signed it ever expected it to be in force at the end. Something was going to happen along the way.
Nothing ever did.
Thank you for your excellent postings.
692

Unfortunately "restoration" ,"unfrozen" or any other made up terms are not defined in the contract and past practices have shown wording like "snapback" or "retroactively" etc. are what is need for a arbitrator to agree. You have neither those subjects defined in LOA93 or decent shot in front of a neutral party. Another false firewall from USAPA were the pilots gets burned again and again. Good Luck.

 

[Barrister]

If they're still working for US, as apparently they are if you're flying with them, they don't get the PBGC retirement checks. Once they've severed the relationship with US they start drawing the PBGC retirement.

Jim

I am pretty sure this is wrong. Bud of mine is drawing his 4k month PBGC plus 1500 mo military ret. and still flying 737 at U.

Barrister

 

[Mike]

If they're still working for US, as apparently they are if you're flying with them, they don't get the PBGC retirement checks. Once they've severed the relationship with US they start drawing the PBGC retirement.

Jim
[/quotThanks Jim..some guys have told be otherwise but you know Pilots...they say alot of things! I figured it did not seem right that they could collect at at 60 and still work here and me not being able to start age 50. (At a much lower benefit of course)

 

[john john]

It's possible that full airline mergers would never happen again if every one faced the prospect of the US/HP merger legacy.

Jim

You guys EAST/WEST can say all you want but NIC did not do his job. Spilt the baby
NIC award will go down in history on how not to merge sonority.. And all unions involved with airlines are keenly aware