USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[cleardirect]

hp_fa_, dont know or care who you are or what your legal background is, but missed the entire gist of the entire argument between both sides and the judge.

Incorrect. HP-FA missed nothing. This was simply a discussion that happened after court on Thursday. It had no meaning or weight. The judge was not leaning toward his suggestion. What Seham said was status quo ante. If that is true then it would be separate ratification AND the Nicolau as written. The offer is nothing but a ploy.

The judge is smart enough to know he cant touch the TA. It was between ALPA and the company. The company isnt a party to this suit and wont give up its rights under the RLA. But be careful for what you wish for. Nothing to stop the company from renegotiating with USAPA. That right is in the TA language itself. If you read the transcript for meaning, with an unbiased mind, its looking like the judge knows the limits of any injunctive relief he can apply, IF he rules for plaintiff and IF Appeals court doesnt overturn:

We have not even begun to talk about remedies. This was a short discussion after court one day. On Wednesday we will find out what the judge can and can not do.

No matter how many times I read that conversation between Seham, Harper, Middlebrook and the judge, I dont get a hint of Half Billion fines, taking away East $70M bonuses. What I get from the exchange is this entire trial might be an AOL bust. Worst case for East if AOL wins? West get to veto a TA if they dont like the wording. Id suggest every AOLer reread, over and over again, that exchange posted by usabusdriver. It says it all. Imagine the maneuvering going on this weekend, right now, even as I write this. Im hearing a big sigh of relief from USAPA, not that I ever thought thye had a big worry about fines or a union death sentence. The judge has outlined the worst-case scenario for US. Snoop

Again, incorrect. This trial is moving pretty quick but you need to keep up. The bench trial was scheduled for Friday. Because of Seham’s delay arguing over jury instructions all day that was pushed to Wednesday. This is the remedies phase. Have you noticed there has been no mention of DAMAGES yet? That is because that portion is later on in the year. Possibly late summer or early fall. That is where the big buck come in. No one is even talking about money yet.

Promises made, promises broken. Look for ANOTHER east only assessment. Man usapa is an expensive organization.

 

[cleardirect]

This pretty much sums up any case for damages short of contempt violation of what may be an out-of-court settlement:

THE COURT: Mr. Stevens, it seemed to me that if the plaintiff prevails, the remedy is an injunction that orders the union to negotiate for the Nicolau Award. And I can't think of any other remedy.

Definitions are very specific. Remedy phase. DAMAGES phase. Reread your quote.

Pay raise in 2010? Who knows? Or who cares? With a potential additional 5 years to work ($1M+/- a little), they dont need to get it back. I fly with these guys. They dont want a smart-mouthed 28-year-old know-it-all FO/IRO displacing a 21-year seniority, never been furloughed 50-year-old. Family is important. We have a family here back East. But if your talking about immediate family, that extra $1M (+/-) takes out the sting even if we lose the LOA-93 automatic pay raise and stay single for the next 5 or 10 years.

Wow I did not realize that your were so age prejudiced. A bit dramatic. Jeff Skiles was hired at age 28 was he discriminated against like you are claiming? But you are talking about WB int. Could you point to any 28 year old on either list that has the seniority to hold the position? No! Are you looking for some additional bidding restriction? Seniority plus age. Only over 50 allowed.

The extra Mil is nice but I would think another $200,000 $300,000 might be hard to hold them back. Especially once the truth comes out about what has been going on. Waiting for the appeal to get a contract. Could be to much for many. Remember the average retirement age is 62.5 according to your our lawyer. Not quite your $1 million. Closer to $500,000. At your self described bottom of the barrel wages with hard work rules. So good luck with that.

Your here-and-now mentatlists dont get it. Cant wait to hear the results of the ongoing negotiations. But take heart, if this ends in a settlement and you dont like the results, you can always opt out and start all over. Meanwhile, anyone correct me if my numbers are wrong, I believe we get additional 5 A330s and next year the count is 7 more.

Settlement? Not possible. I just hope that you are not to surprised or disappointed by the results.

Not sure of the numbers. But I believe that they are coming to the company. Could be the west side.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not sure of the numbers. But I believe that they are coming to the company. Could be the west side.

If by "west side" you mean LAS/PHX, that doesn't matter. What matters is that they aren't listed in appendix A of the transition agreement. If not, either side can fly them no matter where the airplanes are based.

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

The list is long as to why this won't work. The most notable item is how the pairings are constructed. The optimizer uses the duty rigs as the primary driver when constructing the pairings in an attempt to fly off as much rig as possible. You can't have two pilots with different work rules on the same pairing for that reason.

Furthermore, a list isn't a list until it is defined in a contract. The first sentence in section 22, yours and ours, defines the lists, respectively - "The system seniority list shall be the list contained in this agreement..." or words to that effect.

Sorry my friend. Any list must be part of a ratified contract to be any good to anyone. I bet Judge Wake understands that.

I would also suggest that anyone who claims to know how the jury or Wake will rule is getting a bit ahead of themselves in a fit of exuberance. We will all know soon enough then it is onward to SFO for the appeal, either way.

There are adminstrative ways around the first problem. USAPA can negotiate a bridge scheduling section that would deal with that issue.

But with a contempt charge hanging like the sword above their heads, they would have ample motivation to quickly negotiate a suitable contract. USAPA would have to level with their constituency and tell them that voting down all agreements just to keep a status quo is not acting in good faith. The company won't waste their time participating in such a charade. The west will not participate in any informational picketing, etc. that would prompt the company to sweeten their offer if the only thing acceptable is ridiculously expensive.

So everyone will be held hostage to irrational behavior forever? Do you really believe this?

In the Bizarro world that is USAirways, employees turn down raises in order to stay at the bottom of the industry and refuse to accept anything because it might provide some benefit to a group they would rather treat with disdain. Is this an airline or a Mel Brooks movie?

I think that the west pilots will begin to participate and their ideas and actions will attract the attention of those on the east that are dissatisfied with spending money to do nothing. The west pilots have experience in dealing with this management group and a clear plan will win out over sticking your head in the sand until you retire every time.

And if an appeal is a foregone conclusion, what is the basis of such an appeal, since you are in the midst of the proceedings where you could remedy any appealable issue?

 

[hp_fa]

TP, that comment was before you posted:

I haven't forgotten, however, as I said on Thurday, Seham had a point and the Court was paying attention

Dont be so touchy! Das Snooper

Snoop, had you missed this link from Thursday? Link.

The reason I am so touchy is that I have tried to be very careful with my credibility in discussing what I have observed and making sure that personal opinions have been clearly identified. Why should that matter to me on an anonymous web board? I can't answer that except to say my personal credibility always matters to me. I can, do and will make mistakes. However I don't think I have made any about what I have seen and reported.

 

[Mike]

I guess I missed where the judge said he can't touch the 70M. Could you point that out?

The pay raise in 2010? Are you sure? The top guys might be a little upset if they wait for that raise but end up giving that away for nothing. They can't get that back. At what point does their family become more important then the guy sitting next to him?

I may be wrong but it is my understanding flying with them. (Over 60) they are now collecting their PBGC Benefits to the tune of +/- 4000.00 per month. If this is really the case they are far from upset right now. They have had a big raise already. Again I may be wrong but that is my understanding..Anyone?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I haven't forgotten, however, as I said on Thurday, Seham had a point and the Court was paying attention.

Perhaps humoring him, for lack of a better term? Somehow, after everything so far, I have a hard time believing that Wake is of a mind to pay a whole lot of attention to much of anything Seham says, other than something the law is unequivocally clear about, leaving no other option.

 

[EastUS]

USAPA would have to level with their constituency and tell them that voting down all agreements just to keep a status quo is not acting in good faith.

I see...so...one must then presume that the voting constituency and their choice of how to vote is now somehow to be remotely ruled from a courtroom or union? What's the suggested west "solution" or applicable court ordered "remedy", if such as myself simply refuse to EVER vote into existence any nic inclusive list? Have you plans for additional (and certainly magical) litigation challenging the reasonable freedom of how one votes, simply due to it not going along your desired path?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

It sure looks that way, doesn't it?

Ladies and gentleman, we are usapa, we are free to jack anyone and everyone around for as long as we like.

 

[cleardirect]

If by "west side" you mean LAS/PHX, that doesn't matter. What matters is that they aren't listed in appendix A of the transition agreement. If not, either side can fly them no matter where the airplanes are based.

Jim

Correct. That is exactly what I meant

 

[Megasnoop]

Definitions are very specific. Remedy phase. DAMAGES phase. Reread your quote.

THE COURT: But as I think about this at times, Mr. Stevens, it seemed to me that if the plaintiff prevails, the remedy is an injunction that orders the union to negotiate for the Nicolau Award. And I can't think of any other remedy.

No proven loss = no damages, at least none that you got from USAPA actions, unless youve been following some other case. Maybe the judge holds a remedy over our heads. Hes already spelled out as far as he can go. the remedy is an injunction that orders the union to negotiate for the Nicolau Award. And I can't think of any other remedy Maybe he holds damages over our heads. Damages for what? Your own witnesses say we werent stalling.

Incorrect. HP-FA missed nothing. This was simply a discussion that happened after court on Thursday. It had no meaning or weight. The judge was not leaning toward his suggestion. What Seham said was status quo ante. If that is true then it would be separate ratification AND the Nicolau as written. The offer is nothing but a ploy.

Then why did hp say “I haven't forgotten, however, as I said on Thurday, Seham had a point and the Court was paying attentionâ€￾ You cant have it both ways, Clear.

Wow I did not realize that your were so age prejudiced. A bit dramatic. Jeff Skiles was hired at age 28 was he discriminated against like you are claiming? But you are talking about WB int. Could you point to any 28 year old on either list that has the seniority to hold the position? No! Are you looking for some additional bidding restriction? Seniority plus age. Only over 50 allowed.

Under NIC, Wargocky gets close. In fact with NIC, hed get WB line FO with the 12 A-330s coming in the next 18 months. Hes 29 now. Remember, hes the guy who smart-mouthed:

So Mr. Wellenkotter was hired in May of 1988, and you were born in 1979. So when Mr. Wellenkotter was hired, you were, well, it was May. You were about to celebrate your ninth
birthday, correct?
A. Yes. That's a true statement. I didn't realize it was a bad thing to be hired at a young age.

That was a cringer for the jury and a real hit back East in the briefing room before my last crossing. Not one of his finest moments on the stand. Day 6, p 303 if you need to look it up.

The extra Mil is nice but I would think another $200,000 $300,000 might be hard to hold them back. Especially once the truth comes out about what has been going on. Waiting for the appeal to get a contract. Could be to much for many. Remember the average retirement age is 62.5 according to your our lawyer. Not quite your $1 million. Closer to $500,000. At your self described bottom of the barrel wages with hard work rules. So good luck with that.

Well, were all "above average" especially since no retirement outside PBGC. The top of the list that I fly with isnt going to cave for a pittance, especially if it means flying with your Wargocky types. As 1 CA put it,this is supposed to be a low-stress, fun job. The top of the list isnt flying at $124/hour. Theyr well north of your $144/hour flat rate for all equipment. The Kirby proposal wasnt close to 23% for them. How did you ever negotiate flat rate? Not even CAL or UPS do that any more.

Settlement? Not possible. I just hope that you are not to surprised or disappointed by the results.

Have it your way. As hp observed: "Seham had a point and the Court was paying attentionâ€￾
But if there settlement negotiations, 2 plaintiffs are furloughed, 1 downgraded and 2 chomping at the bit to upgrade. Some class representatives there! All 5 with axes to grind that could conflict with the rest of your "career expectations." Regardless whether this negotiated or ruled, none of the 5 are moving up any time soon.

Not sure of the numbers. But I believe that they are coming to the company. Could be the west side.

No, theyr going east. Weve got the routes. But then, your losing all but 2 of your ETOPS 757s by the end of the year. So, east A-330s to HNL? AH! A violation of the TA. Well get right on that arbitration. Snooper-sized

 

[V1cut]

Well, well...I'm visiting a freind out West and I just HAD to chime in with the "I win" crowd...

Some of the usual suspects need to take their "me, me" glasses off for a second. Any 5th grader can read the exchange quoted and see that Wake see's the futility in ordering the Nic going forward as it would get killed in the ratification vote every time...as you say, he's not stupid. Also, it is obvious he is entertaining the Seham suggestion...just as HP-FA noted....(while I object to his partiality, he's been impartial recently...thank you)...it brings democracy and negotiations back to a reset mode...re-empowering the West,,,(should they prevail)..

If USAPA prevails:......hmmmmmmmmm


And I'll finish up with this tasty tidbit: as has been speculated about for years now...get ready for seperate ops...seemingly forever.

Oh, in the event of a Nic cram-down: since the west has handed the control of USAPA to the East, prepare yourselves for an agreement which will compensate the original East pilots based on LOS or DOH...regardless of a Nic list....(think 10-20 year fence for bidding across the Mississippi)....and thats just for starters.

(cut off nose, meet face)

 

[Pilot692]

This pretty much sums up any case for damages short of contempt violation of what may be an out-of-court settlement:

THE COURT: Mr. Stevens, it seemed to me that if the plaintiff prevails, the remedy is an injunction that orders the union to negotiate for the Nicolau Award. And I can't think of any other remedy.



Pay raise in 2010? Who knows? Or who cares? With a potential additional 5 years to work ($1M+/- a little), they dont need to get it back. I fly with these guys. They dont want a smart-mouthed 28-year-old know-it-all FO/IRO displacing a 21-year seniority, never been furloughed 50-year-old. Family is important. We have a family here back East. But if your talking about immediate family, that extra $1M (+/-) takes out the sting even if we lose the LOA-93 automatic pay raise and stay single for the next 5 or 10 years.

Your here-and-now mentatlists dont get it. Cant wait to hear the results of the ongoing negotiations. But take heart, if this ends in a settlement and you dont like the results, you can always opt out and start all over. Meanwhile, anyone correct me if my numbers are wrong, I believe we get additional 5 A330s and next year the count is 7 more.





Sir Snoop: Could you please do us a favor and refer to the "automatic" pay raise as to what it really is: a RESTORATION. LOA 93 modified existing rates of pay. That modification ends 12/31/09, as you know. The rate of pay restores to pre-existing rates.
That's why Scotch Kirby doesn't understand it; the terminology used has been incorrect. Nobody who negotiated this, sold it at the roadshows (I was there) or signed it ever expected it to be in force at the end. Something was going to happen along the way.
Nothing ever did.
Thank you for your excellent postings.
692

 

[BoeingBoy]

I may be wrong but it is my understanding flying with them. (Over 60) they are now collecting their PBGC Benefits to the tune of +/- 4000.00 per month.

If they're still working for US, as apparently they are if you're flying with them, they don't get the PBGC retirement checks. Once they've severed the relationship with US they start drawing the PBGC retirement.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

The top of the list isnt flying at $124/hour. Theyr well north of your $144/hour flat rate for all equipment.

funny, I thought Sully was one of those "top of the list" pilots flying at $124/hour....

No, theyr going east. Weve got the routes.

They may be going to the East bases and routes, but that doesn't have anything to do with who flys them - time for remedial transition agreement 101.

Jim