USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[Megasnoop]

Snoop, are you sure about that 2041 date? That is 12+ years after my retirement if I go to 65and I am very young among the West captains. Would not hurt us at all if hundreds go in front of us for the rest of our careers?

MY BAD. 2031. 2044 is your youngest gun (I got that right?). But you shouldnt ignore my point. Unless cooler heads prevail and you get control of your former MEC chairman and his ilk who continue to deny jumpseats, the hostilities will continue, at least until the UAL fragmentation. I will never understand the rather immature attacks that continue. This chat board being a microcosm, from my view, your crowd has it all over us in that regard.

You are lucky to fly with the top of the list, and I admire their support of the rest of your group, however, are these not the same people who will not be with us much longer because of this great attrition rate east is suppose to have?

Your correct. These will be the first to retire, starting in 2012, health issues aside. Almost all willing to vote against a NIC-contract. Heres some conjecture, one thing adding to their support is what some regard a windfall for them, an extra 5 years of CA pay. For me, that extra 5 year potential makes it easier for me to stay an IRO/FO for my entire career, so Im not upset on that. In fact, Im glad it happened when it did. Im not a "me-me-me - its all about me" kind of guy.

If the court discounts Nicolau, then the west will have to decide for themselves (I would never predict how it would play out) whether or not to accept a combined contract with less than the Nicolau list. Here again, if the east prevails in their LOA 93 grievance, they would be hard pressed (I conjecture here) to see the east pilots leap far ahead in pay. But stranger things have happened around here in the last few years.

Stranger things have happened. Where do we start? Still, we have the majority until +/-2016 when east retirements give west members control. The judge obviously plans on forcing us to negotiate with the NIC, but he cant force us to vote in favor of something the rank and file dont want. So lets wrap this up right now, get a Kirby-TA from the company, include Section 22 NIC, have the BPR support it and put it out for a vote. Theyd have to or be acting in bad faith. If nothing else, it will get us more paid-up members.

Short of a win in both the RJ and illegal line reduction arbitrations, furloughed plaintiffs Wargocki and Iranpour are not coming back any time soon. LCC furloughed them, not USAPA and neither USAPA or Wake can bring them back. How that plays out in court is immaterial. Theyre still furloughed. This trial isnt going to recall them. Parker said these furloughs will be for a long time, doing his best to reduce excess-capacity in the industry. I believe him.

Per the TA, the company wont allow a flush bid, nor furloughed pilots bumping active pilots, compensation for flying not performed, nor other conditions which materially increase their costs. Even if we win the arbitrations, those 2 come back to separate operations, still bottom of their list – a long time from now, according to the dougster. Lacking arbitration win, not sure what good a number is when your looking at 5+ years before you can use it.

I'm truly joyous that you find any of this hilarious. May your luck respond in kind. As far as the irony, I will reiterate for the UMPTEENTH time that USAPA never offered guarantees of ANYTHING other than the empowerment of the individual pilot who had at least a passing interest in participation.

Amen, brother. I voted for USAPA because ALPA left me long ago, starting with LOA93 and $750K in lost pension. One thing even Judge Wake hasnt factored in is the fragmentation of the west before the merger with UAL. So this entire exercise may turn out to be a colossal waste of time, energy and money. Mr Snoop

 

[exB717Flyer]

Because the geographical East is where the money has been, is, and always will be.

You're absolutely correct but you forget the second part of the equation: costs. Since I don't want to risk the moderator's ire I'll leave it at that. But you knew it anyway.

 

[Elevation]

Short of a win in both the RJ and illegal line reduction arbitrations, furloughed plaintiffs Wargocki and Iranpour are not coming back any time soon. LCC furloughed them, not USAPA and neither USAPA or Wake can bring them back. How that plays out in court is immaterial. Theyre still furloughed. This trial isnt going to recall them. Parker said these furloughs will be for a long time, doing his best to reduce excess-capacity in the industry. I believe him.

My bet is USAPA has lost credibility with 50%+1 of the pilot group and they will vote for a new contract if it merits it. Once the contract is in place a recall will happen due to work rule improvements and vacation increases.

 

[Barrister]

Why should the West be more worried than the East?

If you really need an answer to that it is hopeless. How is the revenue base in LAS and PHX. Not a slam or cut or even a degree of fault just a business fact. Look at the bright side. You are split off and sold to SW.

Barrister

 

[cleardirect]

If you really need an answer to that it is hopeless. How is the revenue base in LAS and PHX. Not a slam or cut or even a degree of fault just a business fact. Look at the bright side. You are split off and sold to SW.

Barrister

In the words of Steven Tyler of Aerosmith.

Dream on, Dream on.

2009 not 2005 not 1975.

 

[Megasnoop]

My bet is USAPA has lost credibility with 50%+1 of the pilot group and they will vote for a new contract if it merits it.

Total lack of understanding of why we threw out ALPA. The recent elections prove the opposite on USAPA leadership credibility. The Kirby proposal was bad enough. Throw in the NIC with it? No merits at all. DOA.

Once the contract is in place a recall will happen due to work rule improvements and vacation increases.

Elev, without Judge Wake forcing a contract vote, the Kirby proposal wont get out of the NC, much less past the BPR. Recall? Who cares? Just more Easties elected until 2016 at the earliest. Not that any of this makes any difference. Parkers going to fragment this place anyway while its still in separate ops, stalling, knowing that even under NMB, hes got 2 years to rope-a-dope. East goes to UAL. West? After what weve been dealing with from you guys, not sure any of us care what happens to you. Only downside to UAL is ALPA gets the property back without even a vote.

Careful,

There is a perception that only the F/o's at U are not happy. Many pilots with 25 years at U will NEVER see a block on a widebody because of Nicolau. At BIG group of very senior pilots NOT in the top 517 will NEVER vote a joint contract. That is something a judge CANNOT force. We will be split up and sold seperately when the big deal Parker has been waiting on comes along. If I were an Westy I would be very worried. Barrister

Barrister, its almost a waste of band-width. They dont get it. Its more than yeild. Its feed. We see the Europe 88% loads last month, we know the ticket prices. Thats where the yield is, thats where the feed to CLT/PHL is, not from PHX/LAS. UAL/East compliment each other, little overlap. UAL/West? Lot of overlap. Parker can do the fragmentation easier with two separate contracts. West could go bye-bye. Im sure USAPA will defend them though! Wouldnt want another one of those nasty DFRs, now would we? Oh forgot, as soon as single carrier status declared, were all back in ALPA. They can DFR ALPA. Steve

 

[Freighterguynow]

Careful,

There is a perception that only the F/o's at U are not happy.

If I were an Westy I would be very worried.

80% participation rate in the Presidential election in PHL - 78% in LGA.

I believe somebody upgraded US Airways stock because UAL parking their 737 fleet produced most cutbacks out West in the markets we compete. I think 'third times the charm' re United, I can't see 1500 UAL guys on the street to buy an operation they just downsized out of.

 

[prechilill]

All of this talk of fragmentation, UAL buying the east, etc. is sooo funny and certainly entertaining! Look, if we merge with UAL or AMR the bottom 1000 pilots are gone. Post Addington this will probably mean all of these slots will be from the formerly furloughed east. No question the waters are murky, but it looks like the courts are definitely ruling in favor of Nicolau and with a DFR against the east USAPA is already marked in the legal system as being biased. To me, anything coming down the pike is going to decimate the east furloughees because they are on the bottom of Nicolau and Nicolau is the governing seniority list for the airline. Besides, selling the east parts to UAL would be great! Then AWA could jettison the expensive dead weight out east and get back to being the lean, efficient operation which competed effectively with Southwest for decades (instead of cutting and running like USAir is known for having done).
All of this doomsday talk now coming from Snoop and the other USAPA zealots on here means one thing:
The USAPians are definitely waving the white flag with Addington. It is game over for USAPA and after Friday they all know it.

 

[luvthe9]

All of this talk of fragmentation, UAL buying the east, etc. is sooo funny and certainly entertaining! Look, if we merge with UAL or AMR the bottom 1000 pilots are gone. Post Addington this will probably mean all of these slots will be from the formerly furloughed east. No question the waters are murky, but it looks like the courts are definitely ruling in favor of Nicolau and with a DFR against the east USAPA is already marked in the legal system as being biased. To me, anything coming down the pike is going to decimate the east furloughees because they are on the bottom of Nicolau and Nicolau is the governing seniority list for the airline. Besides, selling the east parts to UAL would be great! Then AWA could jettison the expensive dead weight out east and get back to being the lean, efficient operation which competed effectively with Southwest for decades (instead of cutting and running like USAir is known for having done).
All of this doomsday talk now coming from Snoop and the other USAPA zealots on here means one thing:
The USAPians are definitely waving the white flag with Addington. It is game over for USAPA and after Friday they all know it.

OUTSTANDING SPIN!!!!!!!! And I guess if we merge with either one the west will feel they saved them to and think they have rights to the 74's and 77's

 

[EastUS]

Total lack of understanding of why we threw out ALPA. The recent elections prove the opposite on USAPA leadership credibility. The Kirby proposal was bad enough. Throw in the NIC with it? No merits at all. DOA.


West? After what weve been dealing with from you guys, not sure any of us care what happens to you.

Only downside to UAL is ALPA gets the property back without even a vote.

1) Agree completely. I believe that's pretty much the majority thought out east.

2) I'd personally hate to see any/all of the non pilot employees out west suffer from the corporate "fun" so prevalent these days. Sadly, after all this time of "feeling the love" from the west...I realize that I must agree with your "not sure" that I care much what happens for the "fellow pilots" out there anymore. "Fellow pilots" don't deny jumpseats, etc, ad nauseum.

3) Alpa again?..Now, there's a truly disgusting thought.

Interesting times indeed.

 

[prechilill]

OUTSTANDING SPIN!!!!!!!! And I guess if we merge with either one the west will feel they saved them to and think they have rights to the 74's and 77's

I think we should leave the greedy expectations to the greedy expectation crowd sitting in the right seats out east.
It will be sad to see the bottom 1000 or so pilots get furloughed if/ when the next merger comes along.

 

[Elevation]

A proposal from the company with a 25% raise for the East (plus work rules) would dredge up 600 easties with a brain to vote in a new contract with the West.

 

[EastUS]

A proposal from the company with a 25% raise for the East (plus work rules) would dredge up 600 easties with a brain to vote in a new contract with the West.

Unbelievable. Even if assuming that 25% would suffice, and that everyone who would then never see a left again would sign off on such fantasy as you offer here; What possible reason would any east person have to vote in a nic inclusive contract, before seeing how the LOA93 business works out? Add to that the permanent pay differential for seats...and...well...I just don't really feel that you've much thought this out at all.

 

[boeingplt]

All of this talk of fragmentation, UAL buying the east, etc. is sooo funny and certainly entertaining! Look, if we merge with UAL or AMR the bottom 1000 pilots are gone. Post Addington this will probably mean all of these slots will be from the formerly furloughed east. No question the waters are murky, but it looks like the courts are definitely ruling in favor of Nicolau and with a DFR against the east USAPA is already marked in the legal system as being biased. To me, anything coming down the pike is going to decimate the east furloughees because they are on the bottom of Nicolau and Nicolau is the governing seniority list for the airline. Besides, selling the east parts to UAL would be great! Then AWA could jettison the expensive dead weight out east and get back to being the lean, efficient operation which competed effectively with Southwest for decades (instead of cutting and running like USAir is known for having done).
All of this doomsday talk now coming from Snoop and the other USAPA zealots on here means one thing:
The USAPians are definitely waving the white flag with Addington. It is game over for USAPA and after Friday they all know it.

Step away from the crack pipe!

 

[exB717Flyer]

If you really need an answer to that it is hopeless.

If you listen to the advice of Lee Seham you're truly hopeless. Remember how he said the Addington case is "without merit". I like our chances with the jury. Do you?

How is the revenue base in LAS and PHX. Not a slam or cut or even a degree of fault just a business fact.

What part of the word 'cost' don't you understand? If all the revenue is in the East why was US Airways within days of liquidation in 2005? Not a slam or cut or even a degree of fault just a business fact.

Look at the bright side. You are split off and sold to SW.

Okay, I'll look forward to that. Thanks.