USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[Elevation]

Unbelievable. Even if assuming that 25% would suffice, and that everyone who would then never see a left again would sign off on such fantasy as you offer here; What possible reason would any east person have to vote in a nic inclusive contract, before seeing how the LOA93 business works out? Add to that the permanent pay differential for seats...and...well...I just don't really feel that you've much thought this out at all.

There are plenty of captains who would vote for a raise because they want to make some money before retirement. Are you now promoting the fictitious LOA93 "unfreeze" as an actual plan for getting a raise? Unbelievable is right, lol. This plan is DOA if it goes to arbitration. Another year of LOA93 for those poor saps. I just don't really feel that you've thought this out at all. lol

 

[Phoenix]

OUTSTANDING SPIN!!!!!!!! And I guess if we merge with either one the west will feel they saved them to and think they have rights to the 74's and 77's

Well why not? :unsure:

 

[ussnark]

So you think this is an "apples to apples" comparison?

I am not comparing DOH to the flawed "nic" list, as you erroneously assert.

Simply changing a few words makes the judges alleged statement assert damages for either extreme.

 

[Pi brat]

All of this talk of fragmentation, UAL buying the east, etc. is sooo funny and certainly entertaining! Look, if we merge with UAL or AMR the bottom 1000 pilots are gone. Post Addington this will probably mean all of these slots will be from the formerly furloughed east. No question the waters are murky, but it looks like the courts are definitely ruling in favor of Nicolau and with a DFR against the east USAPA is already marked in the legal system as being biased. To me, anything coming down the pike is going to decimate the east furloughees because they are on the bottom of Nicolau and Nicolau is the governing seniority list for the airline. Besides, selling the east parts to UAL would be great! Then AWA could jettison the expensive dead weight out east and get back to being the lean, efficient operation which competed effectively with Southwest for decades (instead of cutting and running like USAir is known for having done).
All of this doomsday talk now coming from Snoop and the other USAPA zealots on here means one thing:
The USAPians are definitely waving the white flag with Addington. It is game over for USAPA and after Friday they all know it.

Wow..................lots to look forward to.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Careful,

There is a perception that only the F/o's at U are not happy. Many pilots with 25 years at U will NEVER see a block on a widebody because of Nicolau. At BIG group of very senior pilots NOT in the top 517 will NEVER vote a joint contract. That is something a judge CANNOT force. We will be split up and sold seperately when the big deal Parker has been waiting on comes along. If I were an Westy I would be very worried.

Barrister

I agree with your sentiment except for one thing:

Don't presume to except the 517 (which is now probably less than 400.) There are a lot of us (maybe even a majority) who will also refuse to vote in a contract which includes the Nicolau. We know that Mr. Nicolau is simply an ......well, I can't give you me true feelings. Just be aware that we are looking out for fairness to our colleagues who have sacrificed ENOUGH.

And ENOUGH, as they say, is ENOUGH!

 

[nycbusdriver]

A proposal from the company with a 25% raise for the East (plus work rules) would dredge up 600 easties with a brain to vote in a new contract with the West.

Please tell us WHY in the world the company would agree to that? I doubt the company will come off of the Kirby proposal of 3% for the west and parity for the east.

It's a non-starter. The company knows it, and will simply drag things out.

 

[Phoenix]

Please tell us WHY in the world the company would agree to that? I doubt the company will come off of the Kirby proposal of 3% for the west and parity for the east.

It's a non-starter. The company knows it, and will simply drag things out.

Non-starter.. draggggg.. I think you are right.

Pilots are the eternal optimists... Its hard to think the company's premise is to make (squeeze blood from turnip) money rather than run an airline. Does a delay make a sale more palatable?

If "consolidation" allowed Delta and Northwest to merge then who can doubt there are folks interested in USair... separate ops would make a sale so much easier.. but those old farts at USAir think they have seniority.. and those young wipersnappers think they have more! How do you polish that?!

 

[luvn737s]

If the judge wants the trial to have been worth it's time, why would he not modify the TA to force the implementation of the Nic list immediately and unbundle it from the ratification of a joint contract? The merits of a joint contract can stand on their own and the arbitration award can be implemented in it's intended spirit.

The judge is smart enough to see the logjam ahead if he doesn't do this.

 

[hp_fa]

If the judge wants the trial to have been worth it's time, why would he not modify the TA to force the implementation of the Nic list immediately and unbundle it from the ratification of a joint contract? The merits of a joint contract can stand on their own and the arbitration award can be implemented in it's intended spirit.

The judge is smart enough to see the logjam ahead if he doesn't do this.

I believe that the Judge believes he can't force implementation of Nicolau. He may think that he can compel it to be contained in any CBA presented to the pilots until a CBA is ratified, but I tend to doubt that he would do that. It is my view that perhaps Seham's suggestion of returning West and East to status quo ante as far as having an effective veto right as a group to any CBA presented to the pilots until one is finally agreed to may be his remedy. In other words both groups would have to each agree to a CBA by a 50% +1 majority.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I believe that the Judge believes he can't force implementation of Nicolau. He may think that he can compel it to be contained in any CBA presented to the pilots until a CBA is ratified, but I tend to doubt that he would do that. It is my view that perhaps Seham's suggestion of returning West and East to status quo ante as far as having an effective veto right as a group to any CBA presented to the pilots until one is finally agreed to may be his remedy. In other words both groups would have to each agree to a CBA by a 50% +1 majority.

Just asking:

Do you mean status quo ante with the stipulated order that the Nicolau abomination be a part of any joint contract proposed?

 

[hp_fa]

Just asking:

Do you mean status quo ante with the stipulated order that the Nicolau abomination be a part of any joint contract proposed?

No, not in the way I think it most likely to be considered. What I thought Seham suggested and the way I would envision it would be that USAPA could negotiate any contract it wished and put that contract to a vote of its members. However, the contract would be required to win a majority of what is now known as West. So, under that scenario the Merger Committee and the BPR could include whatever Section 22 it so desired, but it could be vetoed by a simple majority of West voters. Therefore, East would have plenty of motivation to negotiate with West regarding an acceptable Section 22. Of course if I understand the USAPA constitution correctly this would also require an amendment in their constitution for at least this CBA that allows something other than DOH with conditions and restrictions to be acceptable.

Now of course the Judge could do something stricter, but I think his intent, as I read it, is to take the minimum amount of action that will keep the West from being disenfranchised by the full reaction by East to Nicolau that began on or about 5/3/07.

Was that a fairly clear explanation?

 

[Waketurbulence]

Therefore, East would have plenty of motivation to negotiate with West regarding an acceptable Section 22.

HP,
I hope you didn't waste all your time in court to actually say that...There is no more negotiating seniority.

Section 22 is done. The West knows it. The Judge knows it, the jury will know it after they have been given their instructions. Binding arbitration is exactaly what it says, BINDING.

The only ones who don't know it are the east pilots and their lawyer. But they are going to find out this week, that a mutually agreed upon, final and binding arbitration can not be desregarded.

 

[EastUS]

There are plenty of captains who would vote for a raise because they want to make some money before retirement.

If you say so, I guess it must be true. I'm certainly not one, nor do I personally even know any who think as you suggest here. Perhaps you've a far better feel for the pulse of the east people than we do ourselves? I feel it appropriate to note that none out west have as yet, actually evidenced even the slightest clue as to knowing how the east would react to anything so far. The long ago; "You won't even get 200 cards!" perhaps being the all time classic example there. Your above observations brought that one immediately to mind.

 

[nic4us]

Because the geographical East is where the money has been, is, and always will be. It also happens to be where the East pilots fly.

It also happens to be where I fly at the pleasure of the company. Jet has transcontinental range don't you know.

 

[hp_fa]

HP,
I hope you didn't waste all your time in court to actually say that...

It's all right, I've got...