USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[Metroyet]

Well duh.

Let us re-phrase that.

THE COURT STATED THAT IS DOES NOT THINK ANY RATIONALE JURY COULD THINK THAT THE "nic" SENIORITY LIST IS ANYTHING BUT SUBSTANTIALLY LESS FAVORABLE TO EAST AS COMPARED TO DOH.

See how that works?

So you think this is an "apples to apples" comparison? Let's see:

The nic was derived from Due Process, a final and binding agreement made by duly authorized reps. on behalf of the flight deck crews of their respective airlines. The process was completed with the company accepting the list and issuing two checks for 300k to cover expenses, (even though Jack "pinnochio" Stephan can't remember ever receiving any money, and if his MEC did, he can't remember what it was for)

The DOH list was pulled from USAPAs rectum whilst riding in the back of a Van.

Legally speaking, as a layperson, what does your gut tell you about this?

My gut tells me that the Jury Instructions today are a good indication how this is going to play out. Judge Wake is absolutely, not an idiot.

 

[nycbusdriver]

West will win this case. Why? Because if USAPA's argument wins, it will shoot a big fat hole in the binding arbitration process . The judge knows this and realizes its legal effects could send a title wave of litigation throughout the country. Wake is not going to let it happen in his courtroom.

A "title wave," huh?

Can you explain what exactly a "title wave" is?

 

[EastUS]

A "title wave," huh?

Can you explain what exactly a "title wave" is?

I had opted to let that one go...given a fair share or typos being quite normal for myself..but; one can perhaps assume the wave's family possesses a patent of nobility?....Possibly even to the extent of being a full scale TSir-Nami? Ok, Ok...sorry

It'll be an interesting week to come. Regardless of what jury instructions are issued; I don't know that I'd want the task of being on that jury and having to sort through all of this mess.

 

[cleardirect]

So many posts to comment on today, so little bandwidth.

“The majority could care less?â€￾ Its that "majority" that pulled out all the stops to force the company into arbitration on the illegal furloughs when the company went into a 4-month delay. Remember Beth Holden being sick? Or Hemenway being out of the country? Its hard to carry on a conversation over this when you fail to identify who it was who stuck it to you. ALPA could have put AAA MEC into trusteeship and forced a NIC cram-down contract. They didnt, because they knew theyd lose the property. Now your suffering via furlough. The company did the furloughs, not USAPA. Put blame where blame belongs and we can have a constructive conversation about where we all belong on the final list.

From my point of view, you deserve your job back NOW. Lets hope we successful in the arbitrations. snoop

Lee Seham is that you? I did not know that you visited these boards.

Seham made that exact argument in court on Friday. He was very upset. I thought that his head was going to explode a couple of times. He was forcefully arguing (accusing ) the judge of denying usapa important evidence. That he had videos and many other pieces that would prove his case.

His argument, that ALPA promised they would not put AAA into trusteeship and “cram downâ€￾ a contract. The judge calmly listened said that he did not remember anything like that and please point to where he said that. Seham read from the transcript. The judge listened then said that is not what that evidence says. After further discussion the bottom line was the judge telling Lee Seham lead counsel for usapa that he was mischaracterizing the facts. That he was trying to imply from the evidence a power that ALPA never had or implied that they had. ALPA never said that they could or would put AAA into trusteeship and cram a contract. ALPA can not. What they can do is place a counsel or MEC into trusteeship, then send out a T/A for a vote.

Seham continued to push the issue. Judge Wake asked for the transcript cites. During the break he read them and came back. In a very short and irritated voice stated. That the cites did not support Seham’s position, that he basically did not know what he was doing and did not know how to interpret anything.

As I watched the clown show today one word kept coming to mind. INCOMPETENT. Seham was contrary, and unprepared. They wasted the entire day on jury instructions that should have taken a couple of hours. Today was suppose to be the bench trial for remedies.

After wasting everyone’s time at about 16:30 Wake asked a simple question. Mr. Seham do you expect to present any additional evidence for the remedy? Seham stumbled, started, I don’t know, maybe, yes, no, I want to see. The judge was stunned. Then he said that Mr. Seham the trial was suppose to start today are you going to present evidence or not. It was a simple question that required a yes or no answer. He had no idea.

Seham is incompetent in the extreme. It is time for the east pilots to finally come to the realization that Seham is the only one in the world that reads the law the way he does. If two people read something and have a different opinion it is a disagreement. If 100 people read something and 99 agree but Lee Seham understands it differently. It is not a disagreement it is incompetence. SSM&P and Jim Brengle are going to have a lot of explaining to do if/when they lose this law suit. Somewhere over $1.5 million so far. (44% of income from April 2008 to Dec, 2008) That is before discovery (Oh yeah that’s right. I did say about $1.8 million for this suit but was attacked by the usual suspects) That is a lot of money for a fools errand.

Read the transcripts. It is all there. The judge is quite aware that this is going to be appealed. He is letting both sides make their record. He has no illusions or ego about that. But on the other hand he did write the rules about appeals in the ninth circuit. He could know something about what will and what will not be allowed into the appeals court.

Please promise that Seham is the one to file and pursue this to appeal. I would go to SFO to watch Seham in front of the appeal court judges. Now that is entertainment.

 

[traderjake]

...to justify the genocide of the pilot group.

If you lose in Arizona maybe you should appeal to the World Court or United Nations.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Seham is incompetent in the extreme. It is time for the east pilots to finally come to the realization that Seham is the only one in the world that reads the law the way he does.

I woke up this morning intending to write this but you beat me to it. As a member of USAPA in good standing (which I state matter-of-factly with zero pride) when this is over I will demand Seham be fired. Just think, if every lawyer had told USAPA that binding really does mean binding we might have been able to avoid all this litigation. Seham sure did enrich himself by tellling the Easties what they wanted to hear. Will that lesson be learned? One can hope but frankly I doubt it.

 

[Megasnoop]

Binding arbitration is what its all about. Two sides made an agreement, and were bound to it. If the company made a binding agreement like this and reneged, the howls of protests would be high and wide.

You make a binding agreement, you stick with it, hence the "binding" part.

Ultimately an appeals court (by reviewing and sustaining, reviewing and reversing, sending back to Wake for review or not reviewing at all) will decide whether a binding arbitration survives (transcends) a change in representation. Ive never claimed to know the answer. Its a legal issue decided in court not with web board pontifications or insults. We think it doesnt, your side solemnly declares it does and word-board attacks anyone who disagrees. Throwing your sides emotional baggage in this only guarantees long-term discord, lasting until 2041 when the last of the East pre-merger hires retires (if the airline lasts that long). In your example of the company reneging on binding arbitration, the company remains the same, so I cant accept your premise. USAPA is not ALPA. An adverse verdict will be against USAPA (which includes west members), not against East pilots, members or non-members.

This case could set precedent on appeal, being a one-of-a-kind case probably never argued before. It addresses the right of contract, the scope/survivability of binding arbitration and the right of a union to negotiate free of judicial constraints. Fascinating issues. Constant insults and whining arent going to change the issues and wont change the results. I think its high time to let the excessive insults go.

Worse case for east, we have to include NIC in negotiations. But as nycbusdriver so accurately observed (Ive been saying the same things, but NYC said them so much better):

However, the east pilots won't ratify anything with the Nicolau list until we have results of the inevitable grievance over the expiration of LOA 93 pay freezes (likely to be filed promptly on February 1, 2010,) and what exactly that means. This would drag things out for at least another year from today. If USAPA prevails on the grievance, I suspect the east pilots will be quite happy to remain without a new contract for quite some time. It the company prevails, there may actually be some movement toward an east ratification of a Nic-attached contract.

Amen, brother. BTW, HPearly, no childish anger in his post, just some very solid, well grounded opinion. I fly with the top of the list, guys in the top 170. They will see this thing through with the rest of us. They are that committed. Im humbled by their solidarity and support. NYC is right, if USAPA loses on the pay increase issue, this might move to a quicker conclusion. Otherwise, its a long road ahead. El Snoopo

 

[Barrister]

Careful,

There is a perception that only the F/o's at U are not happy. Many pilots with 25 years at U will NEVER see a block on a widebody because of Nicolau. At BIG group of very senior pilots NOT in the top 517 will NEVER vote a joint contract. That is something a judge CANNOT force. We will be split up and sold seperately when the big deal Parker has been waiting on comes along. If I were an Westy I would be very worried.

Barrister

 

[nic4us]

Throwing your sides emotional baggage in this only guarantees long-term discord, lasting until 2041 when the last of the East pre-merger hires retires (if the airline lasts that long).

This case could set precedent on appeal, being a one-of-a-kind case probably never argued before. It addresses the right of contract, the scope/survivability of binding arbitration and the right of a union to negotiate free of judicial constraints. Fascinating issues.

Worse case for east, we have to include NIC in negotiations. But as nycbusdriver so accurately observed (Ive been saying the same things, but NYC said them so much better):

Amen, brother. BTW, HPearly, no childish anger in his post, just some very solid, well grounded opinion. I fly with the top of the list, guys in the top 170. They will see this thing through with the rest of us. They are that committed. Im humbled by their solidarity and support. NYC is right, if USAPA loses on the pay increase issue, this might move to a quicker conclusion. Otherwise, its a long road ahead. El Snoopo

Snoop, are you sure about that 2041 date? That is 12+ years after my retirement if I go to 65and I am very young among the West captains. Would not hurt us at all if hundreds go in front of us for the rest of our careers?

This case is interesting and asks many questions, that is why it has gotten the traction it has, but the questions have been asked before, there are biblical passages that deal with these same issues, and the answeres have been given many times.

I think you down play worse case for east, but the worse case I can envision will probably not come to pass as a matter of practical bussiness application from the company.

You are lucky to fly with the top of the list, and I admire their support of the rest of your group, however, are these not the same people who will not be with us much longer because of this great attrition rate east is suppose to have?

 

[exB717Flyer]

We will be split up and sold seperately when the big deal Parker has been waiting on comes along. If I were an Westy I would be very worried.

Why should the West be more worried than the East?

 

[EastUS]

Snoop, are you sure about that 2041 date? That is 12+ years after my retirement if I go to 65and I am very young among the West captains. Would not hurt us at all if hundreds go in front of us for the rest of our careers?

This case is interesting and asks many questions, that is why it has gotten the traction it has, but the questions have been asked before, there are biblical passages that deal with these same issues, and the answeres have been given many times.

I think you down play worse case for east, but the worse case I can envision will probably not come to pass as a matter of practical bussiness application from the company.

You are lucky to fly with the top of the list, and I admire their support of the rest of your group, however, are these not the same people who will not be with us much longer because of this great attrition rate east is suppose to have?

1) "I am very young among the West captains. Would not hurt us at all if hundreds go in front of us for the rest of our careers?" I've never understood the notion that anyone has any inherent "right" to fly as a captain for the vast majority of their career. In any case = Isn't ensuring that a great many out east be permanently prevented from regaining their prior left seats via having "hundreds go in front of us for the rest of our careers?" the entire purpose for your advocacy of the nic?

2) There are indeed, appropriate biblical passages. A really basic one comes immediately to mind = "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods". Another that springs to mind is: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Both of those fundamental concepts appear to be completely lost on "some".

3) Worst case scenarios are never fully known in advance. We can certainly agree that the future's unknown....for the west as well.

4) Many will be retiring within a fairly short time frame. It's a true pity no perceivable patience exists out west that factors any such things in.

It's one heckuva' mess around here. Whatever the jury finds in the present case; I'd guess that none of us are out of the woods on this within the at all foreseeable future.

 

[hp_fa]

I agree with what is in Cleardirect's post above as to paragraphs 2,3,4 & 6, excluding his comments about competency, etc. (If I am going to characterize Seham, and I may well do so after the trial, I will do it with my own words.) Those things did indeed happen in court and they will be able to be found in the transcripts whenever they become available.

The Court was clearly upset over Seham's continued attempts to claim that any trusteeship of the MEC would allow a cram down of the Nicolau award on the members after it was clearly stated on the record via correspondence and other evidence that ALPA could not prevent a vote of the members. It could however include Nicolau in Section 22 and include that in any CBA to be voted upon by the members.

 

[nic4us]

Careful,

There is a perception that only the F/o's at U are not happy. Many pilots with 25 years at U will NEVER see a block on a widebody because of Nicolau. At BIG group of very senior pilots NOT in the top 517 will NEVER vote a joint contract. That is something a judge CANNOT force. We will be split up and sold seperately when the big deal Parker has been waiting on comes along. If I were an Westy I would be very worried.

Barrister

No, we get it, you are all unhappy, either you will never see a Widebody, or its the captain seat, or it is blockholder on this or that, or(some are starting to see some light) and its the 25% payraise you walked out on. Newsflash, you would have seen the street without this merger, so save your lame threats, the West is not listening.

If we are split up it may not go along east-west divisions, so as a West pilot I have nothing more to worry about than east. As a matter of fact, I would be more concerned if I were an east pilot, after all who wants anything to do with an entrenched group of malcontents that do not honor their agreements. The entire industry knows what is going on here, and even if they agree that Nic may have unfairly harmed the east, they do not agree that you get to reneg on your agreeements after the fact.

I do not believe a judge will take away your right to vote on a contract, but the contents of that contract can be dictated by the court.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Why should the West be more worried than the East?

Because the geographical East is where the money has been, is, and always will be. It also happens to be where the East pilots fly.

 

[Phoenix]

See page 39 line 19 to page 40 line 1 of day 6 transcripts.

Tell that to HP who suggested otherwise. Thanks for making my point.