USAirways pilots labor thread 7/23-7-29

[HPearlyretiree]

This is unmitigated GARBAGE. I know of no one in the East who wants to just move on if moving on means NIC.

VNIIMN

Ah, but moving on DOES mean NIC.

Ask the judge.

 

[Metroyet]

USAPA must be gaining ground somewhere.

We only hear from the FUD monger once or twice a month for over a year, now we get it every third post. Someone opened the cage so the disinformation could be spread around, and now it's coming down in torrents.

Someone is getting scared about the way things are headed. Don't know exactly what it is, but I think the spewing forth can only be a sign of desperation in a losing battle.

Comparing USAPAs realistic chances in the appeal to "FUD" is hysterical. Let me pose a simple request to your most "democratic" union. Why won't the BPR allow the membership to vote on whether or not they want to pursue a multi million dollar lost cause? Didn't you get to vote for a 100 dollar assessment to hunt down the "real killers" of your pension? Wouldn't logic follow that given the expense of this litigation is several orders of magnatude more expensive, a MIG, once again, would get to vote on it? Instead of the vocal angry FO that simply says, "trust me, we'd vote to appeal!!!" Let's actually find out...no need for trust.

What is the BPR so scared of? Majority Rules right? You know...the gold standard of blah blah blah and all.

I submit the following:

The BPR would rather DIE, than let the MIGS get to vote on this one. They know that their support is erroding faster than a southern california hillside. They've painted themselves into a corner, are flirting with BK, have Zero idea how to get anything done, and are so slogged down in the quagmire of their own creation they can hardly breath. They know they've lost the War and they also know that if given a chance to vote, the majority would throw in the towel. Kim Jong Cleary can't handle that.

If I worked for your airline, and was a MIG, I would demand that my voice be FORMALLY and UNBIASEDLY heard. Any Takers?

 

[captainJack]

Sounds like a certain A/B pilot is just dying to get back to the old, sell out the junior pilot for a nickel raise, ALPA days.

His writings remind me so much of the ALPA mindset. It is the old, he can get away with murder because he is so likeable. So many would, on having pointed out some "leader's" foibles, would inevitably state, ... but, he is such a nice guy". Drove me nuts.

Hopefully, the pilot group has learned over the years, especially when management devotes such resources to interdicting labor, that, indeed, nice guys do finish last. Perhaps the pilot group is waking up, maybe the pilot group needs something different, someone who is not nice. Logic would also be a welcome change.

People like him like to negotiate with themselves. I can only imagine what his grocery list looks like.......

 

[nycbusdriver]

Ah, but moving on DOES mean NIC.

Ask the judge.

Maybe.

But moving WHEN? In 5 or 6 years? So be it.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Maybe.

But moving WHEN? In 5 or 6 years? So be it.

Drag your feet and waste money for 5 to 6 years for the inevitable? The east sure does have a problem with being responsible, first you all wouldn't honor your binding arbitration, like honest people do, now you want to thumb your nose at the judge? I hope the damages really sting.

 

[ClueByFour]

When you read LOA 93 regarding pay restoration and read Donn Butkovic’s letter it appears black and white that the East pilots will receive a pay restoration.

A plain-text reading of LOA 93 could go either way. "Freeze rates" has an expiry. "Reduce rates as frozen" does not.

 

[cleardirect]

Maybe.

But moving WHEN? In 5 or 6 years? So be it.

I think the judge would have a real problem with your timeline. How does that comply with his injunction?

A. Immediately, and in good faith, make all reasonable efforts to negotiate and
implement a single collective bargaining agreement with US Airways that will
implement the Nicolau Award seniority proposal unmodified, according to its terms;

I don't know any lawyer except Seham that would argue that 5-6 years is immediately.

But who knows after 1 year the judge might modify the injunction. He still retains that right. Judge Wake is a smart guy that wants his order complied with. he could come up with some pretty interesting stuff.

If he does not consider 1 year as immediately, Cleary sitting in jail until a T/A is voted on would create a little urgency.

 

[700UW]

I have talked with Doug and Don. You are inaccurate. Also 700 seems to be talking about something else. You and I would have to read the history to actually make the statement you made.

I am talking about what happened to the IAM M&R back in 1993 after the one year concessions we took in 92-93.

I am giving an example of what happened, it is accurate and I am just posting it to show anything can happen in arbitration.

We had specific language that said one year after the concessions were started it would end, the said employee would be put on the pay scale as if concessions had not taken place and there was no pay freeze.

The company disagreed and it went to arbitration, we lost, the arbiter ruled that since the company applied the language the same to all unionized employees it was their intent, it didnt matter that the language was specific to the IAM.

That is exactly what happened, all I am saying is anything can happen in arbitration.

 

[EastUS]

Sounds like a certain A/B pilot is just dying to get back to the old, sell out the junior pilot for a nickel raise, ALPA days.

Reading your propaganda certainly makes me realize that I would rather be "hurt" by USAPA than "helped" by ALPA. It really is a nightmare to to relive the ALPA way even for a moment in your posts.

Ain't that the truth...whew! Who can ever fail to cherish just the fond memories of the pre-election, million dollar plus, Great Alpa FUD Campaign alone?

USA320Pilot comments: The people who told me of the two bullets management has to shoot a whole in USAPA’s pay restoration argument are key union officials and two of them were Stephen Bradford and Scott Theure who spoke about this on my jumpseat.

It seems a pity that none others can ever possibly have the full and true transcripts of all the sordid details coming from the mythical "Jumpseat Conference Calls" alone. Well..no matter...I'll certainly take the poster's word as gospel.

USA320Pilot comments:When you read LOA 93 regarding pay restoration and read Donn Butkovic’s letter it appears black and white that the East pilots will receive a pay restoration. However, when you dig deeper, do the research, and talk to honest people in the know you will hear the truth."

Uh huh....let me see if I have this right = "it appears black and white"....but; "when you dig deeper...and talk to" (insert vague and absurd assertions of unique contacts and astounding levels of personal knowledge and acumen) "honest people in the know", then what appears "black and white" becomes magically, very uncertain. That "might" make one wonder = Exactly WHO would those "honest people in the know" supposedly be? Would they be among those all-knowing illuminati who guaranteed that a UAL merger was a "done deal' so many times before?

USA320Pilot comments: It is clear from crew room discussions and on the line that the East pilot group USAPA support is shifting away form the BPR’s approach."

OK..now that one's got me truly interested = The crew rooms on specifically what planets are supposedly producing such discourse? I ask that as an honest question, since I've NEVER heard such coming from ANY one I've frequented....but, in fairness; I don't get out to PHX, so, I suppose that such "crew room" conversation regarding fantasized east sentiment's not entirely impossible

Nycbusdriver said: “Someone is getting scared about the way things are headed. Don't know exactly what it is, but I think the spewing forth can only be a sign of desperation in a losing battle.â€￾

USA320Pilot comments: There is a proper time and place for everything!

Indeed, and, per long established Alpa tradition; the place and time for instantly rolling up into an utterly pathetic, tear-drenched, fetal ball is always here and now. No need to ever ask what time it is of Alpa sorts....It's always "Armegeddon!" I've long suspected all Alpa-phyle's time pieces are precisely hacked so as to most efficiently raise the standard Alpa white flags of complete surrender at the earliest possible moments. It's somewhat understandable that any embracing that "philosophy" would long for a return to that perverse comfort zone within "the good old days"...I guess anyway...Umm....Excuse me while I puke.

PS: USA320Pilot comments:The East pilots had the support of John Prater and the EC; however, USAPA and its supporters prevented a change to the Nicolau Award to mitigate the seniority problem.." I honestly must feel sorry for anyone who could even possibly imagine such completely insane, utter nonsense to be the case. Well...perhaps it's obvious to some that "USAPA and its supporters" have been and are clearly all about preventing "a change to the Nicolau Award to mitigate the seniority problem"......Words simply fail me here.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (Barrister @ Jul 31 2009, 01:10 AM)
This is unmitigated GARBAGE. I know of no one in the East who wants to just move on if moving on means NIC.

VNIIMN

Ah, but moving on DOES mean NIC.

Then, and only should any/all appellate court(s) and/or LOA arbitration proceedings prove futile; the west will meanwhile be afforded the priceless opportunity of finally, fully learning the true virtue of patience. ...a lesson, very clearly, never before taught, much less understood out west.

 

[Metroyet]

Someone please inform the BPR that they need to set aside 1.8 million dollars for the West legal fees.

Filed this morning.

 

[Poug Darker]

A plain-text reading of LOA 93 could go either way. "Freeze rates" has an expiry. "Reduce rates as frozen" does not.

OK...'Freeze rates' has an expiry. Viola! Unfrozen on 1/1/10. Back to 'status quo' re: LOA 84. If they are no longer frozen, the phrase 'Reduce rates as frozen' has no meaning.
It is common sense and the test is how would a reasonable person interpret this.
Salut.

 

[EastUS]

I think the judge would have a real problem with your timeline. How does that comply with his injunction?



I don't know any lawyer except Seham that would argue that 5-6 years is immediately.

But who knows after 1 year the judge might modify the injunction. He still retains that right. Judge Wake is a smart guy that wants his order complied with. he could come up with some pretty interesting stuff.

If he does not consider 1 year as immediately, Cleary sitting in jail until a T/A is voted on would create a little urgency.

1) It's hard to say how that would comply or not. What IS the specified timeline?

2) Again; I'd ask you to define "immediately" in the fullest and proper legal sense of the term, as it applies here.

3) "he could come up with some pretty interesting stuff." Like what? The more "interesting"...the more subject to subsequent legal challenge, as I'd have thought you would know.

4) "Cleary sitting in jail until a T/A is voted on..." = Whew! Talk about speech sprung forth from utter and obvious desperation! In such a farcical case; It'd reasonably follow that national publicity and at the very least; a likely book deal and well paid lecture circuit engagements for him would come of that. Heck...throw me in that briar patch!

 

[HPDriver]

Then, and only should any/all appellate court(s) and/or LOA arbitration proceedings prove futile; the west will meanwhile be afforded the priceless opportunity of finally, fully learning the true virtue of patience. ...a lesson, very clearly, never before taught, much less understood out west.

Too bad Seham and USAPA don't share that same virtue.

Why else would they file a motion to expedite the appeal?

 

[EastUS]

Instead of the vocal angry FO that simply says, "trust me, we'd vote to appeal!!!" Let's actually find out...no need for trust.

If I worked for your airline, and was a MIG, I would demand that my voice be FORMALLY and UNBIASEDLY heard. Any Takers?

1) If you can honestly even imagine that this is all just about "angry FO"s...youve not the slightest actual clue about what's going on, or is at stake.....not even the very, very slightest clue...period. if you honestly believe, even for a moment, that some wasted effort to "certify" clearly established east sentiment for the amusement of the west contingent's needed...guess again. Tell you what = Have the west pony up some funds for such and we can all have a useless vote....just for a laugh

2) As you're not working within the involved arena, and are not any degree of a dues paying member, possess no evidenced expertise regarding any/all involved issues/etc....No offence but; Why should anyone much trouble themselves with what you think?