USAirways pilots labor thread 7/23-7-29

[700UW]

It was back in 1993 and we were part of DL 141, nothing on the web about it, but I lived it, I was a steward in CLT and got screwed as junior people to me were making more money than I was due to the freeze and the loss of the arbitration.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If USAPA is somehow successful on appeal, I can just about guarantee that any larger pilot union involved in a transaction with US will use the USAPA precedent to run thru McCaskill-Bond arbitration, ignore that award, and then staple USAPA to their list.

Not likely. The US/AW arbitration was an internal ALPA process and nothing more. The only thing "federal" about it is that the ALPA process required using federally qualified arbitrator.

A McCaskill-Bond arbitration has the weight of federal law. It's not an internal process because there are two unions involved. It is an external federally mandated process.

The two are about as alike as apples and nuclear submarines.

 

[ManDachine]

What is interesting is that USAPA's East support is collapsing with the Addington decision, Judge Wake's remedy, information coming out that the "pay resostoration" will likely not happen, USAPA's officials personally enriching them self, a 5% chance the Addington appeal will be a successful "slam dunk" (click here to read more aobut this), and a lack of transparency on the BPR, according to Doug Mowrey.


USA320pilot.....your the only collapsing, or the FO's your flying with are just agreeing with you to shut that pie hole of yours up!

 

[nycbusdriver]

USAPA must be gaining ground somewhere.

We only hear from the FUD monger once or twice a month for over a year, now we get it every third post. Someone opened the cage so the disinformation could be spread around, and now it's coming down in torrents.

Someone is getting scared about the way things are headed. Don't know exactly what it is, but I think the spewing forth can only be a sign of desperation in a losing battle.

 

[Barrister]

What is interesting is that USAPA's East support is collapsing with the Addington decision, Judge Wake's remedy, information coming out that the "pay resostoration" will likely not happen, USAPA's officials personally enriching them self, a 5% chance the Addington appeal will be a successful "slam dunk" (click here to read more aobut this), and a lack of transparency on the BPR, according to Doug Mowrey.


USA320pilot.....your the only collapsing, or the FO's your flying with are just agreeing with you to shut that pie hole of yours up!

This is unmitigated GARBAGE. I know of no one in the East who wants to just move on if moving on means NIC.

VNIIMN

 

[cleardirect]

Was there not a different issue, also? Why would an arbitrator care what other groups had negotiated?

The pilots got double their concession at the first quarterly profit which occurred in the first year.

Sorry to be dense but something seems missing.

Finally you are beginning to understand. Would you please try and explain it to Seham.

Non-pilot employee groups – including flight attendants, mechanics, baggage handlers and dispatchers – uniformly agreed to seniority integration based on a classic date-of-hire basis.

He has been trying to convince the court that what other groups did matters to us.

As you just said why would an arbitrator care? So I guess we can remove that argument from the court of appeals. A little more time and the east pilots will finally understand.

 

[cleardirect]

Not likely. The US/AW arbitration was an internal ALPA process and nothing more. The only thing "federal" about it is that the ALPA process required using federally qualified arbitrator.

A McCaskill-Bond arbitration has the weight of federal law. It's not an internal process because there are two unions involved. It is an external federally mandated process.

The two are about as alike as apples and nuclear submarines.

Well this merger now has the weight of the federal government.

Try reading the thesis a little closer. Yes that would be the first step. Continue reading

For those who want it spelled out for them, here we go. At some point, the AMR pilots, the majority, decide to form a new union. Since they are in fact the bigger group, a new union of their choosing is voted onto the property. With this new union and Mr. Seham’s brilliant legal work, they have the right to bargain for anything they want, including a new list.

Now we have the exact same situation we have here. A new union that decides what is best for the majority of the pilots disregarding the minority. Disregarding the minority view.

US Airways would be the minority. Click, click, staple, staple.

 

[hp_fa]

US Airways would be the minority. Click, click, staple, staple.

However, unless the injunction is lifted, the staple, staple, staple would be in the order provided by the Nicolau list.

 

[USA320Pilot]

CaptainJack said: “You are certainly showing the signs of someone who has taken the hook, line and sinker from this management group. Tell me that I am wrong.â€

USA320Pilot comments: The people who told me of the two bullets management has to shoot a whole in USAPA’s pay restoration argument are key union officials and two of them were Stephen Bradford and Scott Theure who spoke about this on my jumpseat. In addition, people need to ask Doug Mowrey and Don Hollerbach who were on the Negotiating Committee what happened during LOA 93 pay restoration talks and their opinion of the East getting LOA 84 pay rates again. And, 700UW’s comments are germane and accurate on this point.

When you read LOA 93 regarding pay restoration and read Donn Butkovic’s letter it appears black and white that the East pilots will receive a pay restoration. However, when you dig deeper, do the research, and talk to honest people in the know you will hear the truth. Again, I would not count on spending money you do not have in anticipation of winning the grievance.

USA320pilot said: “What is interesting is that USAPA's East support is collapsing with the Addington decision, Judge Wake's remedy, information coming out that the "pay restoration" will likely not happen, USAPA's officials personally enriching them self, a 5% chance the Addington appeal will be a successful "slam dunk" (click here to read more about this), and a lack of transparency on the BPR, according to Doug Mowrey.

ManDachine said: “USA320pilot.....your the only collapsing, or the FO's your flying with are just agreeing with you to shut that pie hole of yours up!â€

USA320Pilot comments: It is clear from crew room discussions and on the line that the East pilot group USAPA support is shifting away form the BPR’s approach. USAPA has broken many campaign promises, they personally enriched them self, they lost the DFR lawsuit they said could never occur, and they are facing an uphill battle in the damages lawsuit and appeal. The majority of the East Captains and Senior F/O’s believe that USAPA has little if any chance of winning the Addington appeal and they want a pay raise. However, a new contract with pay and benefit improvements cannot be obtained until the seniority integration is settled, a merger occurs, or a new union is elected to replace USAPA. The majority of East and West pilots no longer support USAPA and the majority is about to impose their will on the minority with a Representation election when permitted by law to do so.

Nycbusdriver said: “Someone is getting scared about the way things are headed. Don't know exactly what it is, but I think the spewing forth can only be a sign of desperation in a losing battle.â€

USA320Pilot comments: There is a proper time and place for everything!

What is truly sad is if the pilot group had remained with ALPA there would not have been a DFR lawsuit and USAPA could not have been found guilty in federal court. This is not a small issue with a Magistrate in charge, but this is a big issue with a federal judge in charge who wrote the AZ Appellate Handbook and the guilty verdict remedy. USAPA and its pied piper Lee Seham sold the East pilots a bill of goods because just before the Representation election was complete even though the ALPA EC passed a resolution endorsing separate operations until a joint contract and a resolution to the Nicolau Award was complete.

The East pilots had the support of John Prater and the EC; however, USAPA and its supporters prevented a change to the Nicolau Award to mitigate the seniority problem when they voted for a new union and now everybody is being hurt even more by the former RC4/5 crowd and Hardliners.

It's time for the pilot group to be told the truth...not what they want to hear!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[cleardirect]

However, unless the injunction is lifted, the staple, staple, staple would be in the order provided by the Nicolau list.

It was a hypothetical if Seham wins the appeal. which would lift the injunction. Yes bad things could happen.

 

[Barrister]

CaptainJack said: “You are certainly showing the signs of someone who has taken the hook, line and sinker from this management group. Tell me that I am wrong.â€

USA320Pilot comments: The people who told me of the two bullets management has to shoot a whole in USAPA’s pay restoration argument are key union officials and two of them were Stephen Bradford and Scott Theure who spoke about this on my jumpseat. In addition, people need to ask Doug Mowrey and Don Hollerbach who were on the Negotiating Committee what happened during LOA 93 pay restoration talks and their opinion of the East getting LOA 84 pay rates again. And, 700UW’s comments are germane and accurate on this point.

When you read LOA 93 regarding pay restoration and read Donn Butkovic’s letter it appears black and white that the East pilots will receive a pay restoration. However, when you dig deeper, do the research, and talk to honest people in the know you will hear the truth. Again, I would not count on spending money you do not have in anticipation of winning the grievance.

USA320pilot said: “What is interesting is that USAPA's East support is collapsing with the Addington decision, Judge Wake's remedy, information coming out that the "pay restoration" will likely not happen, USAPA's officials personally enriching them self, a 5% chance the Addington appeal will be a successful "slam dunk" (click here to read more about this), and a lack of transparency on the BPR, according to Doug Mowrey.

ManDachine said: “USA320pilot.....your the only collapsing, or the FO's your flying with are just agreeing with you to shut that pie hole of yours up!â€

USA320Pilot comments: It is clear from crew room discussions and on the line that the East pilot group USAPA support is shifting away form the BPR’s approach. USAPA has broken many campaign promises, they personally enriched them self, they lost the DFR lawsuit they said could never occur, and they are facing an uphill battle in the damages lawsuit and appeal. The majority of the East Captains and Senior F/O’s believe that USAPA has little if any chance of winning the Addington appeal and they want a pay raise. However, a new contract with pay and benefit improvements cannot be obtained until the seniority integration is settled, a merger occurs, or a new union is elected to replace USAPA. The majority of East and West pilots no longer support USAPA and the majority is about to impose their will on the minority with a Representation election when permitted by law to do so.

Nycbusdriver said: “Someone is getting scared about the way things are headed. Don't know exactly what it is, but I think the spewing forth can only be a sign of desperation in a losing battle.â€

USA320Pilot comments: There is a proper time and place for everything!

What is truly sad is if the pilot group had remained with ALPA there would not have been a DFR lawsuit and USAPA could not have been found guilty in federal court. This is not a small issue with a Magistrate in charge, but this is a big issue with a federal judge in charge who wrote the AZ Appellate Handbook and the guilty verdict remedy. USAPA and its pied piper Lee Seham sold the East pilots a bill of goods because just before the Representation election was complete even though the ALPA EC passed a resolution endorsing separate operations until a joint contract and a resolution to the Nicolau Award was complete.

The East pilots had the support of John Prater and the EC; however, USAPA and its supporters prevented a change to the Nicolau Award to mitigate the seniority problem when they voted for a new union and now everybody is being hurt even more by the former RC4/5 crowd and Hardliners.

It's time for the pilot group to be told the truth...not what they want to hear!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

The cram down was coming under ALPA and you KNOW IT. Sell your drivel somewhere else where the facts are not known and you will have better success.

VNIIMN

 

[captainJack]

Finally you are beginning to understand. Would you please try and explain it to Seham.


He has been trying to convince the court that what other groups did matters to us.

As you just said why would an arbitrator care? So I guess we can remove that argument from the court of appeals. A little more time and the east pilots will finally understand.

Had you been paying attention, the two different arbitrations were about two separate circumstances. One was to resolve a grievance. Try to keep up.

 

[captainJack]

And, 700UW’s comments are germane and accurate on this point.

I have talked with Doug and Don. You are inaccurate. Also 700 seems to be talking about something else. You and I would have to read the history to actually make the statement you made.

 

[captainJack]

[What is truly sad is if the pilot group had remained with ALPA there would not have been a DFR lawsuit and USAPA could not have been found guilty in federal court. This is not a small issue with a Magistrate in charge, but this is a big issue with a federal judge in charge who wrote the AZ Appellate Handbook and the guilty verdict remedy. USAPA and its pied piper Lee Seham sold the East pilots a bill of goods because just before the Representation election was complete even though the ALPA EC passed a resolution endorsing separate operations until a joint contract and a resolution to the Nicolau Award was complete.

The East pilots had the support of John Prater and the EC; however, USAPA and its supporters prevented a change to the Nicolau Award to mitigate the seniority problem when they voted for a new union and now everybody is being hurt even more by the former RC4/5 crowd and Hardliners.

You know, your fear is quite palpable.

Simply labeling the majority of the pilot group as "the former RC4/5 crowd and Harkliners" seems pretty silly. You seem to desperately need to call people names, categorizing those with whom you disagree and in the process, imply the vast majority of the pilots here are easily led and shallow sheep. Do you even realize that you do that? It is that very same elitist attitude that got ALPA kicked off the property.

Let them east cake...... indeed.

 

[fr8tmastr]

Sounds like a certain A/B pilot is just dying to get back to the old, sell out the junior pilot for a nickel raise, ALPA days.

Reading your propaganda certainly makes me realize that I would rather be "hurt" by USAPA than "helped" by ALPA. It really is a nightmare to to relive the ALPA way even for a moment in your posts.