USAirways pilots labor thread 7/23-7-29

[Megasnoop]

I think Donn B. was recalled before LOA93. I think that was the work of the new and improve neg. committee.

Thanks for the correction, Pi. I thought one of the reasons Buttkovic was recalled was because of the concessions, which included the pay restoration. Maybe he was gone before pay restoration was negotiated. Too much German beer.

In baseball, you don't know nothing. Yogi Berra

 

[Elevation]

SWA put in a bid for Frontier, maybe Seeham services will be requested because hes been so successful.

 

[Megasnoop]

I'm not going to debate the LOA 93 snap back argument on this message board and I would encourage others interested in US Airways East pilots interested in getting a pay raise to not do so as well. Suffice it to say...this disagreement between USAPA and Management will very likely go to Arbitration and could take another 2 years to resolve.

What arbitration took 2 years? Yeah, debating something you cant win, not much logic in that. And its pay restoration, not snap back. Its in LOA93. Too bad for Parker he didnt do his due delegence on that cost. Or maybe he just thought we'd bite on the Kirby. Taking that offer would have been major concession. As West BPR Brice LeCarre whined in his latest Sand Castle video, we deserve an industry leading contract. The Kirby that your so proud of doesnt come close. LOA84 rates do.

Position...Eq...Current...1/2010...5/2010
Capt......A330....159.........229.......236
F/O........A330....108.........156.......161

Capt.....Grp1.....144.........205.......211
F/O.......Grp1......98........140.......144

Capt......Grp2.....124.........178......183
F/O........Grp2......85.........121.......125

Capt......E190....96...........98.........98
F/O........E190.....53...........54.........54

Only down-side is the 190 rates, but they were passed by our former ALPA MEC.

Again, after nearly 16 months in control of the union can you tell me one thing USAPA has done to benefit the pilot group?

The $35M for our LTD pilots comes to mind. And yesterday's MEC 07-05-01 Jets for Jobs Benefits and Pay arbitration win. Also stopping the fuel bump intimidation. One thing theyve done for sure is to get ALPA off the property and prevent a NIC cram-down.

All I know they have done is misrepresent information, personally enrich them self with increased pay, authorized them self new vehicles for their use provided by the union, and authorized them self OCONUS/GSA per diem breaking campaign promises to the pilot group.

Oh come on, same old song. They cant hold a candle to the FPL and perks our former MEC had. Please site campaign promises broken. Kind of hard to understand your biting the hand that helped you out.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Megasnoop,

Megasnoop said: “What arbitration took 2 years? Yeah, debating something you cant win, not much logic in that. And its pay restoration, not snap back.â€

USA320Pilot comments: If I thought the US Airways pilot group would obtain “pay restoration†I would be the first one to jump on the bandwagon. However, many people smarter than you and I who were directly involved in LOA 93 negotiations along with people like Stephen Bradford have said it is unlikely the East pilot group will obtain “pay restoration.†I have a lot of respect for Donn Butkovic, but many people with knowledge of the situation disagree with his well-written opinion. I’m not going to go into this more, but Arbitrations can take up to two years to complete if a party decides to stall the process. Do I like this? No, of course not, but it’s reality.

Megasnoop said: “The $35M for our LTD pilots comes to mind. And yesterday's MEC 07-05-01 Jets for Jobs Benefits and Pay arbitration win. Also stopping the fuel bump intimidation.â€

USA320pilot comments: The majority of the LTD Arbitration work was done by ALPA R&I including representatives from Herndon and people like Rich Alter and Mark Minor. In fact, ALPA attorney Paul Girdany wrote all of the legal work. USAPA inherited the work done by ALPA with USAPA simply obtaining the Opinion & Award.

USA320Pilot comments: All I know they have done is misrepresent information, personally enrich them self with increased pay, authorized them self new vehicles for their use provided by the union, and authorized them self OCONUS/GSA per diem breaking campaign promises to the pilot group.

Megasnoop said: “Oh come on, same old song. They cant hold a candle to the FPL and perks our former MEC had. Please site campaign promises broken. Kind of hard to understand your biting the hand that helped you out. “

USA320Pilot comments: Former NC Chairman Doug Mowery, who was once politically aligned the RC4/5, the Hardliners, and the BPR tried to warn the pilot group about USAPA and people like Mike Cleary and his dishonesty. Mowrey wrote a letter to the pilot group to warn the pilots of USAPA’s lack of character. Click here to read where Mowrey publicly states "(USAPA) communications to you are, at times, misleading through a failure to tell the 'whole story'."

And, you're wrong about the former MEC's FPL. ALPA officials were never paid a stipend and they never withheld information about their special pay and benefits to the pilot group. Click here to read about USAPA's special pay that the BPR authorized for them self without asking the membership or permitting the membership to vote on USAPA getting special pay, which I believe we will find out may be a violation of DOL law, when another DFR lawsuit could be filled against USAPA in the not-too-distant future.

Finally, confirming Doug Mowrey's concern and his warning click here to read about how USAPA changed the UOM when they authorized them self the use of new cars for their personal use that are being paid for by union dues.

What is interesting is that USAPA's East support is collapsing with the Addington decision, Judge Wake's remedy, information coming out that the "pay resostoration" will likely not happen, USAPA's officials personally enriching them self, a 5% chance the Addington appeal will be a successful "slam dunk" (click here to read more aobut this), and a lack of transparency on the BPR, according to Doug Mowrey.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[cleardirect]

What arbitration took 2 years? Yeah, debating something you cant win, not much logic in that. And its pay restoration, not snap back. Its in LOA93. Too bad for Parker he didnt do his due delegence on that cost. Or maybe he just thought we'd bite on the Kirby. Taking that offer would have been major concession. As West BPR Brice LeCarre whined in his latest Sand Castle video, we deserve an industry leading contract. The Kirby that your so proud of doesnt come close. LOA84 rates do.

So confident. “Debating something you can’t win†What did we hear from you during the DFR trial? No one knows what will happen let’s wait for the outcome. No one knows what the outcome of binding arbitration will be over pay rates.

“Its in LOA93†Please point out the specific language that states and controls the pay rates. I see no language that defines what’s happens or the rates they return to.

The company did not do due diligence. This is the attitude that gets unions and more importantly usapa into trouble. They underestimate management. They did not get to their position by being stupid, sloppy, lazy or hiring incompetent lawyers. You make a large assumption that Parker “missed†something in the contract.

Could it be that usapa’s lawyers are reading something into the LOA 93 that is not there? Seham’s track record so far has been questionable.

Interesting logic. You have a current pay rate. You are ASSUMING something that is not for sure. Then taking and uncertain rate and applying to an offered rate. If you don’t get the snap back it can not be a concession. This is the same logic that the NAC is using. That back in the 90’s us airways had X. So anything less than that is a concession.

Great. And houses used to be a lot more money. They are not worth what they were three years ago.

Again you make an assumption. No one is proud of the Kirby proposal. But that is the starting point. It is up to usapa to get something better than that. LOA84 might. But that is far from reality.

Only down-side is the 190 rates, but they were passed by our former ALPA MEC.

Yep the MEC passed it. But the east and west pilots voted for it. So who is to blame? ALPA or the pilots that voted for it? Maybe you will deny that the east pilots got to vote for the 190 pay rates.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Al Legheny said: "As to what APA can do, it can alter seniority but that alteration must be in the interest of the bargaining unit as a whole. Undoing a DOH list would require a very good reason if it is already recognized as a standard in the industry and declared to be in the best interests of labor as a whole."

ClueByFour said: "No, not under the USAPA standard it would not require any good reason. It's within a "wide standard of reasonableness," remember? If USAPA is somehow successful on appeal, I can just about guarantee that any larger pilot union involved in a transaction with US will use the USAPA precedent to run thru McCaskill-Bond arbitration, ignore that award, and then staple USAPA to their list. The current SCOTUS will not uphold DOH over everything else because it's the "gold standard." Take that one to the bank."

USA320Pilot comments: I agree with ClueByFour. If USAPA is successful in its appeal to the Ninth Circut Court and then USAPA is able to change the America West-US Airways pilot seniority integration a new federal court order regarding seniority integrations will become the standard for unions representing two different employee groups in an airline merger. The federal court order could take precedent. To read more on this developing story click here.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[700UW]

Like I said before we (IAM M&R) back in 1993 had clear specific language in the concessions that our pay would snapback to exactly on the pay scale one year after concessions as if they had never occurred.

We were forced to take it to arbitration and we lost, cause the arbiter said we were treated like every other work group, even though our language was different.

 

[USA320Pilot]

700UW said: "Like I said before we (IAM M&R) back in 1993 had clear specific language in the concessions that our pay would snapback to exactly on the pay scale one year after concessions as if they had never occurred. We were forced to take it to arbitration and we lost, cause the arbiter said we were treated like every other work group, even though our language was different."

USA320Pilot said: 700UW is correct and it is highly likely the Company will use this Arbitration Opinion & Award as a Legal precedent against USAPA. And, the IAM decision is one of two screaming bullets I understand Union officials expect the Company will use against USAPA; however, I do not want to publicly discuss this.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Dog Wonder]

however, I do not want to publicly discuss this.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Good thing this is a members only forum.

 

[hp_fa]

Good thing this is a members only forum.

Huh?

 

[A320 Driver]

700UW said: "Like I said before we (IAM M&R) back in 1993 had clear specific language in the concessions that our pay would snapback to exactly on the pay scale one year after concessions as if they had never occurred. We were forced to take it to arbitration and we lost, cause the arbiter said we were treated like every other work group, even though our language was different."

USA320Pilot said: 700UW is correct and it is highly likely the Company will use this Arbitration Opinion & Award as a Legal precedent against USAPA. And, the IAM decision is one of two screaming bullets I understand Union officials expect the Company will use against USAPA; however, I do not want to publicly discuss this.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

So what are you recommending there dude? Roll over and quit? Little late for that isn't it? Three people negotiated LOA 93. The NAC Chairman and the two PIT reps. They had their little negotiating sessions right there in the corner at the MEC meeting. I saw them. I watched as they made discisions for this pilot group. I watched them give away our contract and left us with no place to go. And every pilot that voted yes supported them.

At this point, what difference does it make if we try to arbitrate these pay rates. West doesn't want us to get anything unless they get theirs first. They fought our pay parity. We are on our own. IMO, we have nothing to lose.

Driver B)

 

[captainJack]

What is interesting is that USAPA's East support is collapsing with the Addington decision, Judge Wake's remedy, information coming out that the "pay resostoration" will likely not happen, USAPA's officials personally enriching them self, a 5% chance the Addington appeal will be a successful "slam dunk" (click here to read more aobut this), and a lack of transparency on the BPR, according to Doug Mowrey.

Pay restoration will certainly never happen if the pilot group allows it to slip away.

Like you said, DM had little negotiating experience when he became chair, now you say he is ready????? I respect DM a lot, his honesty is impeccable, but, he is no match for the dirty pool played by management, certainly not representing a pilot group that is just now starting to realize that for this management group, negotiations are a game and not "survival" as some have tried to characterize it.

You are certainly showing the signs of someone who has taken the hook, line and sinker from this management group. Tell me that I am wrong.

I am reminded on my many talks with a certain RIDC manager, and, expressing my fears about a certain Capt. Rep in PIT, the man stopped me and said that not only did that guy fly 85 hours per month, but the only grievances management in RIDC studied and practiced for were for his. The manager may not have liked the man, but he certainly did respect him.

Put aside your personal emotions please and try to help rather than shrink into a fetal position. Please.

Just for once, I'd like to see the pilot group say no to management.

 

[captainJack]

Like I said before we (IAM M&R) back in 1993 had clear specific language in the concessions that our pay would snapback to exactly on the pay scale one year after concessions as if they had never occurred.

We were forced to take it to arbitration and we lost, cause the arbiter said we were treated like every other work group, even though our language was different.

Was there not a different issue, also? Why would an arbitrator care what other groups had negotiated?

The pilots got double their concession at the first quarterly profit which occurred in the first year.

Sorry to be dense but something seems missing.

 

[700UW]

The company's argument is we treated you like the pilots and flight attendants and the arbiter accepted it, even though the language was different, the arbiter said it was intent of the company to administer it the same way as the other work groups.

 

[captainJack]

The company's argument is we treated you like the pilots and flight attendants and the arbiter accepted it, even though the language was different, the arbiter said it was intent of the company to administer it the same way as the other work groups.

Is there a web location that I can read what you all had?