US Pilots Labor Topic-Aug 1-5

[captainJack]

Even assuming for the moment that bankruptcy was somehow underhandedly used to "weasel out" of labor agreements, are you saying USAPA models its behavior after the worst aspects of management's behavior?

He is not saying that.

USAPA is not weaseling out of labor agreements. It was formed to put together a merged list, something not possible under ALPA which would have resulted in separate lists, likely, forever. Remember, under ALPA, the "nic" meant nothing until both west and east separately ratified a merger agreement, something not likely in the foreseeable future.

The relevance speaks to US bankruptcy II which was initiated with the sole intent to interdict labor (per Glass) and not to promote US survival. There are a hundred or so east pilots (mostly ALPA snorkelers) that took the "survival" line hook, line and sinker. It is hard for them to admit their failure. The rest know better, especially now. Management only did it to break their word, legally.

It seems to me that Wake is attempting to abrogate a labor agreement, the transition agreement, by modifying what is on the books. The fact that he is just a tool of a few west pilots makes it somewhat interesting.

 

[Barrister]

HP_FA said: I generally stay away from pilot issues that deal with things I have no real knowledge of and no background understanding. That said I can say that what I have seen quoted from USAPA regarding the legal stuff, which I do have a background in and some knowledge of, could often be at best classified as wrong. At worst it could be classified as propaganda and disinformation that is very much akin to what was being fed to the pilots by the AAA MEC before and during Nicolau. Frankly, from my perspective, the legal interpretation coming from USAPA has been so biased that it virtually screamed for a response because of its wrong interpretation of what was actually occurring. Perhaps "unbiased" has and is somewhat more of a swing to the dead-center than the USAPA version of "fair and balanced". However, again from my view, the "unbiased" reaction to "fair and balanced" has not been to the degree of what MSNBC became to Fox News."

Selected U.S. District Court’s Finding of Facts written by Judge Wake that he submitted to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals

• USAPA has at various stages misstated law, facts, and procedural history, with frequent recourse to the “contradiction or confusion . . . produced by a medley of judicial phrases severed from their environment.†Guaranty Tr. Co. of N.Y. v. York, 326 U.S. 99, 106 (1945) (Frankfurter, J.).
• A jury has already found that USAPA breached its duty of fair representation with respect to the West Pilots. In short, USAPA violated the duty because it cast aside the result of an internal seniority arbitration solely to benefit East Pilots at the expense of West Pilots. USAPA failed to prove that any legitimate union objective motivated its acts.
• Mr. Bradford, who is beyond the subpoena power of this Court, missed an opportunity for persuasion when he declined to testify and be cross-examined at trial concerning motives and pretext in defense of the union he founded and governed.
• Before certification, USAPA repeatedly asserted that a contract was likely to be presented for ratification soon. [E.g., ex. 100 at 3, 7.]
• Majority opposition does not defeat the duty of fair representation; the duty exists to restrain the majority. Air Wisconsin, 909 F.2d at 216. USAPA’s argument would allow a union to punish any disfavored minority by pointing to the majority preference in the union as long as that majority threatens to obstruct the collective bargaining process, in this case by hijacking contract ratification.
• In effect, USAPA claims that the East Pilots hold such strong objections to the Nicolau Award that they always will vote as a bloc against any new CBA with it, enjoying the self-denial of a single CBA with improved wages and working conditions into perpetuity. Even if this unbelievable story is believed, it only means that the East Pilots have the power of self-inflicted harm. It does not mean that the union’s duty of fair representation falls victim to self-hostage taking.
• Discrimination and bad faith would be permitted as long as a zealous majority of union members insisted.
• The union’s obligation to federal labor law includes an obligation to stand up to its membership.
• Before and after its election, USAPA has misled the majority about its power to improve their seniority prospects at the expense of the West Pilots. The will of the East Pilots springs from a mistaken understanding of the law and mismanaged expectations. If this is an impasse, it is one USAPA goaded on.
• USAPA “discriminated†when it adopted a seniority proposal for no reason other than to advantage the majority East Pilots at the minority West Pilots’ expense.
• USAPA has repeatedly suggested that only the “final product of the bargaining
process†is subject to fair representation claims, citing Air Line Pilots Association v.O’Neill, 499 U.S. 65, 78 (1991). [E.g., doc. # 36 at 13.] This phrase, carefully plucked from its context, is too slender a reed to support such an elephantine proposition.

USAPA Update – July 31, 2009

“We are extremely confident in our position on appeal as supported by case law.â€

Former USAPA NAC Chairman and USAPA President Candidate Doug Mowery Campaign Letter Comment to the Pilot Group – February 2009

“I am concerned that the promised “transparency†of our union has not materialized to the extent I thought it would. I see an inordinate amount of obsessive behavior over security and leaks. Communications to you are, at times, misleading through a failure to tell the “whole storyâ€. Those on the inside know what I am talking about. Those of you on the outside, the line pilots, do not know what I am talking about because of the actions taken by some to withhold information from you. I will work to truly make this the transparent union I envisioned when I voted for USAPA. Strategy, and the like, should be confidential until the proper time, but I am hearing and seeing issues surrounding the administration of your union that are unnecessarily kept confidential.â€

Regards,

USA320Pilot

usa320 Pilot you are the master of FUD. You suggest that a win in the 9th will result in any group voting in a new union to do a staple job on them. What NIC did to this pilot group in beyond belief and clearly distinguishable. You seem to crave attention and credibility. You have neither.

 

[luvn737s]

The Nic is only unfair to those who fail to distinguish the new USAirways from the old.

 

[captainJack]

The Nic is only unfair to those who fail to distinguish the new USAirways from the old.

Okay, run with that.

Each carrier "dissolved" itself and reconstituted as USAirways, call sign: Cactus. We had a new hire class of 5200 pilots.

What is the generally accepted manner of seniority in a new hire class? Right! By date of birth. DOB.

Tell us how different your suggestion, DOB, would be from DOH?

Thank you.

 

[john john]

JJ,

You are mixing the issue, there were many reasons why US filed for bankruptcy, mostly due to the lessors of the airplanes and credit card companies flexing their muscles not to work with US on doing business when US was bleeding cash.

Unfortunately, labor is the casualty when it happens.

Bottom line is USAPA was formed because the pilots on the east lost a binding arbitration case, and Bradford was shopping for lawyers to tell him what he wanted to hear, not reality, USAPA has done nothing to benefit the pilots but to divide and conquer and not focus on the real issue which is obtaining a new CBA.

And getting major concession form labor was a big part of bankruptcy especially bankruptcy II. In bankruptcy court documents and statements the company stated in blunt terms that if it does not get the cost saving it was seeking under its plan to transform itself into a low-cost carrier it would probably liquidate in January 2005
Was this the truth? Was this edictal? Was the bankruptcy courts right?
Its business 101 taught by the best

 

[USA320Pilot]

Barrister,

Barrister said: "usa320 Pilot you are the master of FUD. You suggest that a win in the 9th will result in any group voting in a new union to do a staple job on them. What NIC did to this pilot group in beyond belief and clearly distinguishable. You seem to crave attention and credibility. You have neither."

USA320Pilot comments: Barrister, my post provided comments from 3 people with intimate kowledge of USAPA's legal approach to the Nicolau Award and the Addington trial. Let me emphasis a few key points:

HP_FA said: "I can say that what I have seen quoted from USAPA regarding the legal stuff, which I do have a background in and some knowledge of, could often be at best classified as wrong. At worst it could be classified as propaganda and disinformation that is very much akin to what was being fed to the pilots by the AAA MEC before and during Nicolau. Frankly, from my perspective, the legal interpretation coming from USAPA has been so biased that it virtually screamed for a response because of its wrong interpretation of what was actually occurring."

Judge Wake said: "USAPA has at various stages misstated law, facts, and procedural history, with frequent recourse to the “contradiction or confusion . . . produced by a medley of judicial phrases severed from their environmentâ€￾ (This information will be sent to the Ninth Circut Court of Appeals).

Judge Wake said: "Before and after its election, USAPA has misled the majority about its power to improve their seniority prospects at the expense of the West Pilots" (This information will be sent to the Ninth Circut Court of Appeals).

Former JNC Chairman and USAPA NAC Chairman Doug Mowrey said: "USAPA Communications to you are, at times, misleading through a failure to tell the “whole storyâ€￾. Those on the inside know what I am talking about. Those of you on the outside, the line pilots, do not know what I am talking about because of the actions taken by some to withhold information from you."

USA320Pilot comments: Barrister, people like HP_FA (who has an excellent understanding of law and the Addington case - much better than me) indicated USAPA information should be "classified as propaganda and disinformation", Judge Wake said "USAPA has at various stages misstated law, facts, and procedural history, with frequent recourse to the contradiction or confusion", and Doug Mowrey said "USAPA Communications to you are, at times, misleading through a failure to tell the 'whole story'â€￾ and Doug further indicated USAPA has taken actions "by some to withhold information from you."

My God, how man people need to tell you that USAPA's BPR and team are dishonest and lack character? Barrister, when is it ok to purposely provide communcations that are classidfied as "propaganda and disinformation", or "misleding", or "fail to tell the whole story?"

Can you tell me which one of the quotes from the respected people above is inaccurate and why their quotes are inaccurate? Speaking of credibility...from the comments above how much credibility does USAPA have? And, how much trouble are they getting their East members into with a new claim filed for USAPA and its members to pay the West pilots $1.8 million in legal fees plus potential damages in the pending "class action" lawsuit?

Are HP_FA, Judge Wake, and Doug Mowrey spreading Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD)?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[USA320Pilot]

Barrister,

One more point...the quotes in my post above are not hearsay and they are not rumors. They are comments that are attributed to other bright people made in public and not USA320Pilot's comments.

You might not like my message, but don't shoot the messenger.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Well, there you have. The Honorable Stock Clerk has ruled. End of story.

Address the issue, was USAPA formed to get out of a binding arbitration that the east pilots agreed to enter and that they refused to honor?

(hint, the judge and jury thought so)

 

[EastUS]

What EastUS is saying is that if you carelessly drive off into a ditch (in a new Taurus, say) calling for a tow truck is "surrendering". By that "reasoning" 'Tis better to continue trying to extricate yourself from the ditch by burning up the transmission, all the while digging your self further in the ditch. Then blame Ford for making an inferior product.

Classic!

Some folks actually want to get where their going rather than trying to teach that ditch a lesson.

Wow!...Speaking of "Classic"! Thanks for that most insightful summary! You see...I didn't realize I was "saying" anything of the sort! I thought it was more along the lines of:

"QUOTE (EastUS @ Aug 3 2009, 07:59 PM) *
Construct and offer up ANY reasonable and viable argument as to WHY any east pilot should/would actually want to deny themselves the right of appeal in the Addington case?"


Is it fair to now note, that you, like every other westie thus far, can't so much as construct even the very feeblest of logical arguments for the east not pursuing the appeals process...? ..other than to do so ill suits your own selfish purposes? :blink:

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Aug 3 2009, 05:38 AM) *
"Construct and offer up ANY reasonable and viable argument as to WHY any east pilot should/would actually want to deny themselves the right of appeal in the Addington case?

Answer: It would be the fastest route to being president of ALPA? What do I win?!

No Fair!...You must have gotten a copy of the test answers!

 

[captainJack]

Barrister said: "usa320 Pilot you are the master of FUD. You suggest that a win in the 9th will result in any group voting in a new union to do a staple job on them. What NIC did to this pilot group in beyond belief and clearly distinguishable. You seem to crave attention and credibility. You have neither."

Bingo!

 

[EastUS]

Doing stuff requires you to stay focused on doing stuff, not merely trying in vain to prove that you're legitimate by bullying your fellow pilots.

And if you take the whole of ALPA's contribution, it was far more positive than you give it credit for.

1) As I'm always interested in improving my moral perspective and overall understanding of life: How, exactly does your first fit in with the long-established epidemic of west pilots denying their east '"fellows" jump seats?

2) How so? ANY and all specifics would be greatly appreciated. Would, perhaps the wholesale slaughter of airline pensions within alpa "represented" carriers be serviceable as a proper example for your claim? Hmm...would the continued deterioration of the airline piloting profession's wages and benefits, from what they once were, be another? Is it fair to additionally note just how much the alpa produced nic has so greatly enhanced life for both the ex AWA and US pilot groups?

You made this statement: "...it was far more positive than you give it credit for." I'll ask you to actually back that up in ANY possible way. Good luck!

 

[EastUS]

What EastUS is saying is that if you carelessly drive off into a ditch (in a new Taurus, say) calling for a tow truck is "surrendering". By that "reasoning" 'Tis better to continue trying to extricate yourself from the ditch by burning up the transmission, all the while digging your self further in the ditch. Then blame Ford for making an inferior product.

Addendum: "The west dearly wants to fantasize that east resolve is collapsing/blah, blah/etc....ummm..sure. My point is that there are actually ZERO logical benefits/gains to be had for the east pilots in abandoning the appeals process, the quest for LOA93-84 resolution, etc. I feel that the west people are certainly capable of understanding this....so...their current position and propaganda output purely puzzles me......sort of

"I feel that the west people are certainly capable of understanding this..." Was that last, happy assumption made in error?

 

[Crzipilot]

Whenever a pilot comes out of his hole, you really gotta sit back, look at all the past history, and figure out what he really wants.........


Have a feeling someone wants that union spot they have been coveting for some time. So much so, making friends with the west side (nothing wrong with that, but the westies should watch out.) Guess someone is really "itching" for that 3% raise..........all for himself....all for the company......

 

[700UW]

And getting major concession form labor was a big part of bankruptcy especially bankruptcy II. In bankruptcy court documents and statements the company stated in blunt terms that if it does not get the cost saving it was seeking under its plan to transform itself into a low-cost carrier it would probably liquidate in January 2005
Was this the truth? Was this edictal? Was the bankruptcy courts right?
Its business 101 taught by the best

I was on the Negotiating Committee for the IAM M&R, the company would not have liquidated but would have shrank drastically, if labor and the ATSB did not get on board GECAS was going to take back 100 planes, US had a plan to operate basically as a regional carrier with some international routes, I saw the plan as it was presented to us the very first day of negotiations as it was shown to all the labor groups.

It was as scare tactic as we had to sign a confidentiality agreement and couldnt reveal the alternate plans the company had prepared