US Pilots Labor Topic-Aug 1-5

[captainJack]

..... basically we were given access to the companies books and other information.

Which set of books? Just the ones the SEC sees?

 

[captainJack]

And that's why USAPA lost the DFR.

There was already a list and the company backs that 100%.

Sigh. As explained many times, the company must accept a list presented by a CBA. They have no choice. Whether the list "accepted" gets used, replaced or modified is subject to many things.

and,

that is not why the kangaroo court ruled for AOL.

 

[captainJack]

There already was a merged list before USAPA was formed.

There was a "proposed" list, subject to two diametrically opposed groups individual ratification. "proposed" in the sense that it had no legs until a merged contract was accepted by both groups. It was absolutely not a "merged" list. Since that was not going to happen, with separate operations forever looming, and knowing how management loves to whipsaw labor groups (it takes longevity to experience that), USAPA was formed as a best chance at a merged list.

 

[Poug Darker]

Doing stuff requires you to stay focused on doing stuff, not merely trying in vain to prove that you're legitimate by bullying your fellow pilots.

And if you take the whole of ALPA's contribution, it was far more positive than you give it credit for.

If you look at the whole of USAPA's contribution, waddya got? :down:

ALPA has NEVER done ANYTHING positive for my career. Every agreement they produced during my tenure has been negative.
Bottom line is that US pilots work more days for less money, fewer vacation days, and more expensive health care than at any other time in their careers. I can't find ANYTHING positive in that.
Bon Voyage.

 

[HPDriver]

Sigh. As explained many times, the company must accept a list presented by a CBA. They have no choice. Whether the list "accepted" gets used, replaced or modified is subject to many things.

and,

that is not why the kangaroo court ruled for AOL.

The company has stated on several occasions and on record as the Nicolau list being the only seniority list they recognize. And should an merger be announced tomorrow, it is that list that will be used.

So, technically, it is being used already.

And, indirectly, the inability for USAPA to recognize this is why they lost Addington.

 

[Megasnoop]

Or maybe he's tired of being represented by people who are mentally and ethically challenged and wants to do something about it.

Or maybe he has his eyes set on something for himself, and he will flip/flop position at will, to befriend whomever may help him at the moment, slicing their throat the next.
Your side is welcoming him with open arms, as he espouses his rhetoric of coming together to get a contract etc etc. Do us a favor, if there is a split up, why not take him with you?!?!?!? Please???? There are many no fly lists that would empty again.....

Crzer, I know we talked about this in the cockpit. Id guess it was regards the latest mass poster who changed colors/sides as the wind blows. He put a link to Unbiased "Facts." The link was a lie. It said Thueur and Parella were both drawing C/O pay when they could only hold F/O positions. Just to repeat, although I doubt he’ll ever admit how wrong “facts†are,

Scott Theuer holds seniority #1809 and Tracy Parrella #1829. They can both can hold C/O positions, but unbiased "facts" made up a bogus chart said "A320 First Officer Scott Theuer’s USAPA Monthly Pay and Perks". Its a lie. In fact Scott has been an A-320 C/O for the last 6 bids, maybe longer. Both can hold 737 C/O in PHL, and C/O 320 in LGA. USAPA Officials on full time FPL “Will Be Paid No More Than What Their Seniority Can Hold." Please, can anyone, 924, TraderJake, A320pilot, any East or West poster with an anti-USAPA agenda give one example, one pilot, where that is not true?

USAPA is working under LOA 95, which was slipped under the radar and signed by Woerth on September 23, 2005, when everyone was distracted by T/A and merger approval. The company had to sign off, too. Quid pro quo? T/A for more flight pay approval? ALPA is the gift that keeps on giving. No one really knew what all the old MECs hidden pay agendas. LOA95 paid all full-time FPLers (AFBs) "current monthly pay cap hours." USAPAs reimbursement is a lot less at 85. It is contractually set that a pilot on full time union flight pay loss gets paid what they can hold. USAPA rejects “current monthly pay cap hours†and only allows 85 hours. That’s 85 hours for 22 days work a month, not 14 or 20 days worked by block holders.

If you look at Bid09-04 you will not find their names, so that they don't take up space for another blockholder. This system has been abused in the past under ALPA. We saw it many times. But it isn't being abused now. No grandfather rights in there. If you cant hold it, you dont get paid for it. The Unbiased "Facts" is a lie. It shows Scott and Tracy holding F/O positions then says they are making $46 to $60K more a year, gaming the system. Its just not so.

LOA95 was the old MEC and ALPA. It’s contractual, but USAPA wont have any part of it, saying 85 hours/month max. That resolution was out in plain sight, debated and voted, not buried like LOA95. Thanks to the old ALPA MEC FPLers. Back on topic, unbiased "facts" portrays Thueur as an F/O. He's not. Tracy can hold C/O and she's paid that. Bob Davison can hold A-330 F/O. Amazing what the untruth squad can put out.

When Unbiased “Facts†starts telling the truth, then maybe East pilots will listen. Right now they have no credibility and nor their supporters.

Ok. ALPA-types, prove me wrong. Im sure we'll get lots of responses. NOT!


All pitchers are liars or crybabies. Yogi Berra

 

[exB717Flyer]

that is not why the kangaroo court ruled for AOL.

There you have it. Our US Federal court is now a 'kangaroo' court. I guess that means the 9th Circuit will also receive the same moniker. Do I hear the US Supreme Court too?

 

[Bear96]

There was a "proposed" list, subject to two diametrically opposed groups individual ratification. "proposed" in the sense that it had no legs until a merged contract was accepted by both groups. It was absolutely not a "merged" list. Since that was not going to happen, with separate operations forever looming, and knowing how management loves to whipsaw labor groups (it takes longevity to experience that), USAPA was formed as a best chance at a merged list.

Spin it / twist it however you want to; it doesn't really matter. Most people can see through this type of smokescreen by now.

Your warped perspective that is disconnected from legal reality is growing ever more irrelevant with each passing day.

 

[EastUS]

Just like the birthers are convinced Obama is from Kenya, so are the USAPAians convinced they actually have a prayer of undoing Nicolau. Good luck with both.

Hmm..the interesting thing about your comment is that the Kenyans appear to share and even fully embrace that very same idea. In fact, they pretty much held a day of national celebration in honor of his election!

Thanks for the wishes for good fortune.

 

[EastUS]

I actually believe this.

Btw: Included, as the centerpiece of the observation you state you actually believe was the following:"My point is that there are actually ZERO logical benefits/gains to be had for the east pilots in abandoning the appeals process, the quest for LOA93-84 resolution, etc." Have you any additional thoughts on that?

 

[EastUS]

So, technically, it is being used already.

I "see. So then; when and where is the first west pilot coming east from the latest bid?..I mean, just "technically" speaking of course...?

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (captainJack @ Aug 4 2009, 07:04 AM) *
that is not why the kangaroo court ruled for AOL.

There you have it. Our US Federal court is now a 'kangaroo' court. I guess that means the 9th Circuit will also receive the same moniker. Do I hear the US Supreme Court too?

Two cents (or perhaps less) worth of philosophy here. As almost impossible as this may be to believe, in that it, with the fullest honestly, has NOTHING to do with the Addington ...I'll still offer it by way of some hopeful enhancement of perspective: In the wake of the Wake and Addington, well; Some of you folks out west appear to have an almost fawning awe for the supposed "perfection", I guess, of the court system. You would all do very well to grow up far past that degree of utter naivete. Again, without ANY reference or assignment towards the current labor issues....well...the longer one lives and observes...the more literally insane products one can tally up from collective court proceedings. I honestly feel that we've the best system on earth in the USA...BUT....it's countless light years away from any perfection of "Justice", and, being an institution entirely depending on the "wisdom" and personal agendas and ambitions/desires/etc of we mere humans..will always be so. Even the finest legal systems are nothing more than necessary evils within even the best societies or civilizations.

Whenever zealots for the legal system speak...I always find myself remembering a couple of pertinent observations = "Son..see here? (the father points to "something" on the ground)..This is sh-t, (holds up can) this is shinola...and don't trust whitey!" as well as an all time, personal favorite = "Where there's Law, no man gets Justice". Just some food for thought.

As far as the Addington and subsequent appeal(s)? = Who can possibly even begin to know how it'll all work out?

 

[exB717Flyer]

Just read the appellate court agreed to USAPA's unapposed motion to expedite the proceedings. Docket #7014854. This is good for all.

The opening brief is due September 25, 2009; the answering brief is due October 26, 2009; and the optional reply brief is due within 14 days after service of the answering brief. This case shall be placed on the December 2009 calendar.

 

[ableoneable]

An open letter to the BPR and all USAir pilots from (east) pilot Rich Alter

July 31, 2009

Dear President Cleary and BPR Members,

I have been a member in good standings of USAPA since July 2008. I have participated as an advisor to USAPA’s R & I Committee, Negotiating Committee, and your Benefit’s Specialist. Because there are a number of individuals in new leadership positions that resented my participation and felt threatened by my active involvement, I chose to help quietly behind the scenes trying to keep the company from taking advantage of our pilots and make the benefits transition a smooth one.

But it’s now time for me to step forward and say enough is enough. For over a year I have heard promise after promise, but none have come true. No contract in three months, no date of hire seniority list, and extensive abuse of union flight pay loss, instead of more volunteers giving of their time. You promised lower dues and a better accounting of every dollar spent, yet you refuse to share a budget, account for my 2008 contributions and can’t accurately calculate my future dues payments. You promised transparency and an organization based on democratic principles, yet you vote behind closed doors and give yourselves pay raises knowing you have deceitfully prevented any recall actions from being proffered. You are spending over 60% of all dues collected on legal counsel and waist money on outside pension and benefit’s advisors that are doing nothing positive for our pilots. You’re making promises you know you can’t keep and writing checks that we as members can’t afford!

Finally, your true controlling intensions became clear when you asked all pilots to support, with an assessment, an investigation of our pension termination. In this very emotional vote, you chose to present only one side of the story which influenced the outcome. I, along with other members of the previous R & I Committee offered to write a differing view that would have given all pilots the entire story before they committed to this waste of hard earned money. USAPA refused to publish our side of the story.

This social experiment called USAPA is not what I or other honest pilot at this airline wanted from our new union. We asked for fair representation that respected the needs and wants of everyone. We asked for leadership that practiced and encouraged democratic principles and didn’t take advantage of their power positions. We asked for leaders that put the line pilot first. The sad part is we have some real talented individuals in our group that USAPA refuses to recognize or use, with years of experience and expert advice. Unfortunately your egos get in the way of your common sense.

I only have to ask myself “Am I better off today then I was two years ago?â€￾ Fact is I’m not!

Things are actually worse now than they have ever been. The company gives USAPA leadership no respect or credibility. That has lead to real pain and suffering by many pilots and their families. That wouldn’t have happened under the previous bargaining agent. It only gets worse as times goes by. How much pain will we all have to endure before others finally join me in saying it’s time for a change. Unfortunately no matter what name we give this pilot organization (USAPA, ALPA, Teamsters, Etc.); we are still the same apathetic group that has allowed a hijacking of our union and the stagnation of our careers.

Fact is USAPA and its leadership have lost touch with the needs of our pilots! So because of misleading promises and lies, because of deceitful practices, mismanagement of dues and because my membership has been ignored and disrespected, I have decided to become an objector. I ask that my dues be re-evaluated immediately to reflect my change in membership status. I await your confirmation and reply!

Sincerely,

Rich Alter
USAPA #12288
704-XXX-XXXX

CC: US Airways Pilots

All east pilots are buying USAPA's story indeed.

 

[captainJack]

There you have it. Our US Federal court is now a 'kangaroo' court. I guess that means the 9th Circuit will also receive the same moniker. Do I hear the US Supreme Court too?

A more mature person would read that as the process that warrants the moniker, "kangaroo court". A less mature would take it as an attack. Any legal process that narrowly defines evidence in order to guarantee a desired outcome is a kangaroo court, by definition.