cleardirect
Veteran
- May 24, 2008
- 6,234
- 9,749
- Banned
- #106
US Pilots Labor Topic-Aug 1-5
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
- Status
What is the relevance of a management action to the current intra-union situation?
Even assuming for the moment that bankruptcy was somehow underhandedly used to "weasel out" of labor agreements, are you saying USAPA models its behavior after the worst aspects of management's behavior?
Did USAPA mention this would be its philosphy during the election?
E
EastUS
Guest
That's certainly a most "interesting" (and very telling) response to the previous observations and offered thought..versus the clearly, only fantasized value of the west's propaganda assault
If that's what truly passes for a logical response to the offered observations....all I can say is that you've my fullest sympathy. Would you now, on any level, and with ANY degree of earnest effort, care to actually respond to the following?..or..its it so very discomforting to not just be hearing "Only what you want" ?
".....is rather an effort at evidencing east sentiment for the west's understanding, based upon the current situation. Much posted on this board stems from apparently emotional impetus and fails to actually address any realistic issues.
My suggested exercise was/is offered by way of some hope for a small bit of mutual understanding.
The west dearly wants to fantasize that east resolve is collapsing/blah, blah/etc....ummm..sure. My point is that there are actually ZERO logical benefits/gains to be had for the east pilots in abandoning the appeals process, the quest for LOA93-84 resolution, etc. I feel that the west people are certainly capable of understanding this....so...their current position and propaganda output purely puzzles me......sort of
I find it of some minor interest that none yet seem ready or able to offer any direct response to what I'd think a very basic proposition of logic:
Construct and offer up ANY reasonable and viable argument as to WHY any east pilot should/would actually want to deny themselves the right of appeal in the Addington case? Within said argument...I'd strongly suggest a well-defined presentation as to what's in completely surrendering that right of appeal for the east people?
I suppose it could be put differently = I'd ask the west people to simply place themselves into east shoes for but a moment, and inquire of them whether or not they would pursue the appeal? Extra points for any honest responses from the west pilots
"Again = "I find it of some minor interest that none yet seem ready or able to offer any direct response to what I'd think a very basic proposition of logic"
Cleardirect: "Inattention to detail is a bad sign for a pilot." It certainly is.
EastUS: "Extra points for any honest responses from the west pilots" Sigh...perhaps it's time to give up on that part
Well, it's a little disconcerting that we were suppose to have a USAPA forum board and, well, we know where that went. And Yes, Metroyet, we should have been allowed to vote on the appeal. It's going nowhere and we're going to lose. And Clear, good post a while back (can't cut and past very well). We need to come together on this. We're getting screwed by the pooch!
E
EastUS
Guest
Easy fix = First; Gain some/ANY actual group support for the idea of dropping the appeal. (Good Luck) I'd suggest starting with a petition to drop the appeal, active interfacing with the reps and all concerned officials, making your opinions know through any/all venues/etc....but employ whatever approach you feel comfortable with.
It's certainly the proper right of any member in good standing to make their concerns and desires fully known, and demand action on them. If you feel the appeal's the wrong avenue to walk, and you can ever get enough people to agree with you there...then, you've a moral responsibility, both to yourself and to the group to act on your belief.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
Well, there you have. The Honorable Stock Clerk has ruled. End of story.
- Banned
- #112
Ok,how many years did ALPA represent mainline?
Through two bankruptcies, lots of concessions and the give away of your pension didnt cause a union drive now did it?
Lose a binding arbitration case and loss of seniority and USAPA was born, call a spade a spade but even a blind man can see the reality of why USAPA came to fruition.
Through two bankruptcies, lots of concessions and the give away of your pension didnt cause a union drive now did it?
Lose a binding arbitration case and loss of seniority and USAPA was born, call a spade a spade but even a blind man can see the reality of why USAPA came to fruition.
L
luvn737s
Guest
What EastUS is saying is that if you carelessly drive off into a ditch (in a new Taurus, say) calling for a tow truck is "surrendering". By that "reasoning" 'Tis better to continue trying to extricate yourself from the ditch by burning up the transmission, all the while digging your self further in the ditch. Then blame Ford for making an inferior product.
Classic!
Some folks actually want to get where their going rather than trying to teach that ditch a lesson.
Poug Darker
Senior
- Jul 12, 2006
- 276
- 22
Guys, ALPA was on the property for how long? And accomplished....well if you can't say anything positive about it, you shouldn't say anything?
USAPA is here for how long? Months as opposed to years. Doing stuff takes time, especially when you have to un-do things first.
Safe to say that where the pilots are at now is a direct result of ALPA. Where they are going is still being formed.
Nothing happens overnight, except paycuts - and that is NOT what everyone wants. Anything else is going to take some time.
Cheers.
USAPA is here for how long? Months as opposed to years. Doing stuff takes time, especially when you have to un-do things first.
Safe to say that where the pilots are at now is a direct result of ALPA. Where they are going is still being formed.
Nothing happens overnight, except paycuts - and that is NOT what everyone wants. Anything else is going to take some time.
Cheers.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
But if you had just told all of us how you were going to rule, it could have saved us so much time and frustration.
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
HP_FA said: I generally stay away from pilot issues that deal with things I have no real knowledge of and no background understanding. That said I can say that what I have seen quoted from USAPA regarding the legal stuff, which I do have a background in and some knowledge of, could often be at best classified as wrong. At worst it could be classified as propaganda and disinformation that is very much akin to what was being fed to the pilots by the AAA MEC before and during Nicolau. Frankly, from my perspective, the legal interpretation coming from USAPA has been so biased that it virtually screamed for a response because of its wrong interpretation of what was actually occurring. Perhaps "unbiased" has and is somewhat more of a swing to the dead-center than the USAPA version of "fair and balanced". However, again from my view, the "unbiased" reaction to "fair and balanced" has not been to the degree of what MSNBC became to Fox News."
Selected U.S. District Court’s Finding of Facts written by Judge Wake that he submitted to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals
• USAPA has at various stages misstated law, facts, and procedural history, with frequent recourse to the “contradiction or confusion . . . produced by a medley of judicial phrases severed from their environment.†Guaranty Tr. Co. of N.Y. v. York, 326 U.S. 99, 106 (1945) (Frankfurter, J.).
• A jury has already found that USAPA breached its duty of fair representation with respect to the West Pilots. In short, USAPA violated the duty because it cast aside the result of an internal seniority arbitration solely to benefit East Pilots at the expense of West Pilots. USAPA failed to prove that any legitimate union objective motivated its acts.
• Mr. Bradford, who is beyond the subpoena power of this Court, missed an opportunity for persuasion when he declined to testify and be cross-examined at trial concerning motives and pretext in defense of the union he founded and governed.
• Before certification, USAPA repeatedly asserted that a contract was likely to be presented for ratification soon. [E.g., ex. 100 at 3, 7.]
• Majority opposition does not defeat the duty of fair representation; the duty exists to restrain the majority. Air Wisconsin, 909 F.2d at 216. USAPA’s argument would allow a union to punish any disfavored minority by pointing to the majority preference in the union as long as that majority threatens to obstruct the collective bargaining process, in this case by hijacking contract ratification.
• In effect, USAPA claims that the East Pilots hold such strong objections to the Nicolau Award that they always will vote as a bloc against any new CBA with it, enjoying the self-denial of a single CBA with improved wages and working conditions into perpetuity. Even if this unbelievable story is believed, it only means that the East Pilots have the power of self-inflicted harm. It does not mean that the union’s duty of fair representation falls victim to self-hostage taking.
• Discrimination and bad faith would be permitted as long as a zealous majority of union members insisted.
• The union’s obligation to federal labor law includes an obligation to stand up to its membership.
• Before and after its election, USAPA has misled the majority about its power to improve their seniority prospects at the expense of the West Pilots. The will of the East Pilots springs from a mistaken understanding of the law and mismanaged expectations. If this is an impasse, it is one USAPA goaded on.
• USAPA “discriminated†when it adopted a seniority proposal for no reason other than to advantage the majority East Pilots at the minority West Pilots’ expense.
• USAPA has repeatedly suggested that only the “final product of the bargaining
process†is subject to fair representation claims, citing Air Line Pilots Association v.O’Neill, 499 U.S. 65, 78 (1991). [E.g., doc. # 36 at 13.] This phrase, carefully plucked from its context, is too slender a reed to support such an elephantine proposition.
USAPA Update – July 31, 2009
“We are extremely confident in our position on appeal as supported by case law.â€
Former USAPA NAC Chairman and USAPA President Candidate Doug Mowery Campaign Letter Comment to the Pilot Group – February 2009
“I am concerned that the promised “transparency†of our union has not materialized to the extent I thought it would. I see an inordinate amount of obsessive behavior over security and leaks. Communications to you are, at times, misleading through a failure to tell the “whole storyâ€. Those on the inside know what I am talking about. Those of you on the outside, the line pilots, do not know what I am talking about because of the actions taken by some to withhold information from you. I will work to truly make this the transparent union I envisioned when I voted for USAPA. Strategy, and the like, should be confidential until the proper time, but I am hearing and seeing issues surrounding the administration of your union that are unnecessarily kept confidential.â€
Regards,
USA320Pilot
Selected U.S. District Court’s Finding of Facts written by Judge Wake that he submitted to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals
• USAPA has at various stages misstated law, facts, and procedural history, with frequent recourse to the “contradiction or confusion . . . produced by a medley of judicial phrases severed from their environment.†Guaranty Tr. Co. of N.Y. v. York, 326 U.S. 99, 106 (1945) (Frankfurter, J.).
• A jury has already found that USAPA breached its duty of fair representation with respect to the West Pilots. In short, USAPA violated the duty because it cast aside the result of an internal seniority arbitration solely to benefit East Pilots at the expense of West Pilots. USAPA failed to prove that any legitimate union objective motivated its acts.
• Mr. Bradford, who is beyond the subpoena power of this Court, missed an opportunity for persuasion when he declined to testify and be cross-examined at trial concerning motives and pretext in defense of the union he founded and governed.
• Before certification, USAPA repeatedly asserted that a contract was likely to be presented for ratification soon. [E.g., ex. 100 at 3, 7.]
• Majority opposition does not defeat the duty of fair representation; the duty exists to restrain the majority. Air Wisconsin, 909 F.2d at 216. USAPA’s argument would allow a union to punish any disfavored minority by pointing to the majority preference in the union as long as that majority threatens to obstruct the collective bargaining process, in this case by hijacking contract ratification.
• In effect, USAPA claims that the East Pilots hold such strong objections to the Nicolau Award that they always will vote as a bloc against any new CBA with it, enjoying the self-denial of a single CBA with improved wages and working conditions into perpetuity. Even if this unbelievable story is believed, it only means that the East Pilots have the power of self-inflicted harm. It does not mean that the union’s duty of fair representation falls victim to self-hostage taking.
• Discrimination and bad faith would be permitted as long as a zealous majority of union members insisted.
• The union’s obligation to federal labor law includes an obligation to stand up to its membership.
• Before and after its election, USAPA has misled the majority about its power to improve their seniority prospects at the expense of the West Pilots. The will of the East Pilots springs from a mistaken understanding of the law and mismanaged expectations. If this is an impasse, it is one USAPA goaded on.
• USAPA “discriminated†when it adopted a seniority proposal for no reason other than to advantage the majority East Pilots at the minority West Pilots’ expense.
• USAPA has repeatedly suggested that only the “final product of the bargaining
process†is subject to fair representation claims, citing Air Line Pilots Association v.O’Neill, 499 U.S. 65, 78 (1991). [E.g., doc. # 36 at 13.] This phrase, carefully plucked from its context, is too slender a reed to support such an elephantine proposition.
USAPA Update – July 31, 2009
“We are extremely confident in our position on appeal as supported by case law.â€
Former USAPA NAC Chairman and USAPA President Candidate Doug Mowery Campaign Letter Comment to the Pilot Group – February 2009
“I am concerned that the promised “transparency†of our union has not materialized to the extent I thought it would. I see an inordinate amount of obsessive behavior over security and leaks. Communications to you are, at times, misleading through a failure to tell the “whole storyâ€. Those on the inside know what I am talking about. Those of you on the outside, the line pilots, do not know what I am talking about because of the actions taken by some to withhold information from you. I will work to truly make this the transparent union I envisioned when I voted for USAPA. Strategy, and the like, should be confidential until the proper time, but I am hearing and seeing issues surrounding the administration of your union that are unnecessarily kept confidential.â€
Regards,
USA320Pilot
YES
Why not business as usual
L
luvn737s
Guest
Doing stuff requires you to stay focused on doing stuff, not merely trying in vain to prove that you're legitimate by bullying your fellow pilots.
And if you take the whole of ALPA's contribution, it was far more positive than you give it credit for.
If you look at the whole of USAPA's contribution, waddya got? :down:
Phoenix
Veteran
- Apr 16, 2003
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captainJack
Member
- Jul 16, 2009
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I see quite a few assertions. Only one, possibly, question.
Apparently you are not a pilot. Most good pilots can see through your assertions as questions. If I were nice, I would characterize your "questions" as rhetorical. Stated to make a point in the form of a question. No answer required or desired.
That may work on west pilots, but, experience teaches one to ignore all but the most crass of those practicing such immature behavior. Yeah, you think you have all the answers? In fact, you understand little.
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