US Pilots Labor Topic-Aug 1-5

[EastUS]

Yes: we don't believe you. You're going to have to prove it to us.

First; How about a response to the following, equally absurd, perhaps even equally flat-out-insane BS then:

"We don't believe you", that the vast majority of westies are hard core nic supporters, and we demand a vote to prove that! We feel that any/all resources spent on examining west sentiment there would be brilliantly used! Immediately after that...since nothing any westie ever says about his/her group sentiment can be trusted..we'd all like a referendum on west feelings on global warming! If you don't agree that a vote on these issues is vital...then..you're all hiding something out west!

 

[cactusboy53]

That's highly unlikely. If I ever had to deny a jumpseater a ride due to capacity, I would personally explain the entire situation and apologize profusely for my inability to carry him/her. Additionally, the gate agent would likely give off enough hints that capacity was doubtful.

When a jumpseat is denied by a west pilot to an east, or vice versa, due to the animosity, I think it's quite clear what the reason is, even if it is unreasonable.

Well, no jumpseats denied on my behalf. We need to educate as many of the US Airways pilots as humanly possible (that USAPA in going down the wrong road and spending money on legal advise that has yet to produce a "win") . I responded to a post of yours and got nothin". Trouble with the counsel of a mediator / arbitrator, decision of an arbitrator & two pilot neutrals, a federal judge & an empaneled nine person jury? USAPA will be instructed on what is legal and correct. Failure to comply will result in fines and possible jail time.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

With the reappearance of certain posters here and elsewhere, I'm thinking that ALPA is commencing another FUD campaign. There is less than a year left until they can file for another CBA election. That would be just like the ALPA of old. I can only hope that others see this like I do, as sneaky as dishonest as when they were on the property before.

Sneaky and dishonest, kinda like agreeing to binding arbitration, then not honoring the agreement and forming a union to weasel your way out of it? How'd that work out?

 

[Phoenix]

With the reappearance of certain posters here and elsewhere, I'm thinking that ALPA is commencing another FUD campaign. There is less than a year left until they can file for another CBA election. That would be just like the ALPA of old. I can only hope that others see this like I do, as sneaky as dishonest as when they were on the property before.

Just remember that Prater got rewarded for pushing the independent CAL pilot union back into the ALPA fold.

That should tell everything one needs to know about ALPA's stance on democracy and representation.

 

[luvn737s]

The memory of USAPA's incompetence and inability to achieve anything meaningful for the pilots (due in part to only having one tool in their toolbox, a rubber mallet that they constantly smack themselves with) and their inability to unify all the pilots will likely lead to an ALPA landslide as everyone holds their nose and votes for the last thing that worked (whether or not it worked perfectly, it worked). I would also not be surprised to see a west pilot assume leadership of the MEC as east pilots choose someone who hasn't been tarred by previous failure.

Cleary has used up his goodwill among the east pilots and there is little hope of him finding a new spring of it bubbling up anytime soon.

The shocking thing is, he doesn't seem to care.

 

[Phoenix]

The ALPA constitution and bylaws gave no protection of preventing the ALPA MEC unilateral giveaway of the pilot pension (with national's complicit signature to finalize it), despite loud demands for a ratification vote by the members who paid dues. The CB&L did provide for recourse for ALPA reps that were abusing their powers, but ALPA refused to abide by them.

If the pilots EVER restore ALPA to power, the vote will be a full endorsement of every abuse and failure ALPA ever perpetrated against the pilots of USAir.... but if someone ever pulls it off, there is reason to believe they have a good shot at being president of ALPA national.

 

[nycbusdriver]

How'd that work out?

We'll let you know when the dust settles....maybe 2013 or 2014.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Aug 2 2009, 05:54 PM) *
Is there truly any rational reason to waste resources for a vote on either?

I just gotta hear this one for myself.

It occurs to me that we could all save ourselves a whole lot of rhetoric and bombast. How about we simply sink to the level of simple, rational thought for a moment?

Disregarding, for argument's sake, the virtual certainty that the west would now be appealing if the AZ verdict had gone otherwise: I've an honest proposal for any/all west posters...and yes, even inclusive of the utterly insignificant number of extremely vocal east Alpa sycophants as well:

It's very simple really = Construct and offer up ANY reasonable and viable argument as to WHY any east pilot should/would actually want to deny themselves the right of appeal in the Addington case? Within said argument...I'd strongly suggest a well-defined presentation as to what's in completely surrendering that right of appeal for the east people?

If the west can't immediately come up with any strong argument there....free of worthless BS, mindless rhetoric, and just plain, pure fantasy.....well...do the math yourselves as to the east resolve.

 

[john john]

Sneaky and dishonest, kinda like agreeing to binding arbitration, then not honoring the agreement and forming a union to weasel your way out of it? How'd that work out?

The company went into bankrupts to weasel out of binding arbitration rulings with all unions.Sneaky and dishonest, kinda like

 

[Al Legheny]

I haven't posted in a long time here. As a retired employee from the old US Airways, we all took the same terrible ride (pilots and all the rest) before the merger arrived.

After reading this board for the past two years (without commenting). I want to share what conclusions I have come to.

East pilots are fighting the wrong battle and seem to take little heed to the fact that the future is very much in doubt because of your actions IMHO. I have to ask, what gives you guys the right to take away the ability of 20,000+ other employees to take care of themselves and families if you ruin the company while you sing Billy Joel's Angry Young Man?

A little background, I think Bronner was a weasle though I did not know him on a personal level. Siegal was no different and only hired people that good companies would never hire. Everything about him showed a kind of "seedy" behavior. I know the pilots could not trust him with eyes open and watching his every move. I will never understand how a man responsible for all the state pensioners in Alabama sould stoop to taking away pensions others, but he did and he never thought twice about it.

Then came Lakefield. The employee group was at the lowest emotional state ever. He flew through the largest Hub (CLT) just after the board hired him and he hid in the airport. Instead of meeting employees, trying to lift spirits, and telling everyone what he and we could do in the future, he hid until time to board his flight home. Remember Lakefield demanded paycuts from everyone in the 2nd BK but himself. He said that he was too good to take a paycut. He was NO leader in any way shape or form. It is my opinion the the US Airways Board of Directers should have been sued by every employee group (Wolf hired yes men and Bronner retained them).

The East Pilots have drawn a line in the sand and promised to never cross over it (give another penny). But the people and the airline you should have fought against are gone FOREVER.

This is a different war, the old US Airways is dead, Schofield, Wolf, Gangwal, Bronner, Siegal, and Lakefield are gone (Lakefield is Chairman with no authority). You guys keep trying to re-win a war that has already been lost for 100 reasons.

I honestly believe that I see your viewpoints (East), I lived it. It was awful to live thru, the Management that could never be trusted and the threats of the BK judges, but get over it. You are the most intelligence challanged group I have ever seen.

I don't think you have the right to redo history just becasue life is not fair and we were all taken advantage of like no employee group I have ever seen. Parker, the new US Airways, and the old west pilots are not necessarily the enemy except YOU GUYS have chosen to make them your enemy for what others (inlcuding ALPA) have done to you.

I refuse to belive that you have the authority from God to put 30,000 people on the street because of your contrived notions that the current leadership is responsible for what YOU let happen to YOU in the past.

I challenge you to just plain grow up and grow a pair and put your energy into creating a airline that can kick butt instead of being the butt!

The future is very much in doubt because of your actions????

What are we , the East doing pray tell? Please be specific. How is it that we are holding anything up? I fail to see any relavance of that remark what so ever.

The company can do what ever they want. Kirby and Parker have publically stated that the operational integration savings are in the neighborhood of $10 million. There is very little to be gained.

The other employee groups are free to do as they like, we are not stopping them.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

The other employee groups are free to do as they like, we are not stopping them.

So why do some confuse their merger policy with other work groups merger policy?

 

[hp_fa]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Aug 2 2009, 05:54 PM) *
It's very simple really = Construct and offer up ANY reasonable and viable argument as to WHY any east pilot should/would actually want to deny themselves the right of appeal in the Addington case? Within said argument...I'd strongly suggest a well-defined presentation as to what's in completely surrendering that right of appeal for the east people?

EastUS,

Had Seham and USAPA not thoroughly outsmarted themselves by leaving no real representation for the West there might have been a way to at least discuss the issue and make an attempt to find middle ground. But no one or thing represents West. The Addington plaintiffs don't. AOL doesn't because it is not a representative, but rather an entity for representing West pilots solely in a lawsuit.

No, USAPA did themselves proud by not having any remaining West entity and no means for even USAPA's PHX or LAS representatives to even consider it since they would potentially be acting against USAPA. Yup, all roads to having anyone represent West at this point would lead to even more lawsuits. Hell, there can't even be a vote of West folks at this point, the C&BL fixed that up.

Now, had USAPA not outsmarted itself I could see a remote possibility that the West folks might have considered discussing fences and/or some other things that would have at least been a meaningful gesture to the East and a damn sight better than what they are likely to get after spending more money and wasting more time. The West folks might have done something in order to move on to battle with the real foe. I doubt that they would have done anything to throw their most junior members under the bus because that wouldn't have been fair to them, especially since they were specifically protected by Nicolau. But something could have been been attempted.

Seham has protected himself and his firm so that they will squeeze out every possible drop of both life and money from USAPA. Once the end is in sight I would not be surprised to see Seham, as one final act, draw up some kind of indemnity agreement to the benefit of SSM&P. That would be just a perfect frosting for this debacle.


p.s. - Any such indemnity agreement probably wouldn't be worth the paper it would be written on, but in order to establish that there would need to be another lawsuit.

 

[exB717Flyer]

"We don't believe you", that the vast majority of westies are hard core nic supporters, and we demand a vote to prove that! We feel that any/all resources spent on examining west sentiment there would be brilliantly used! Immediately after that...since nothing any westie ever says about his/her group sentiment can be trusted..we'd all like a referendum on west feelings on global warming! If you don't agree that a vote on these issues is vital...then..you're all hiding something out west!

I'm happy to respond. As proven in federal court, the East tried to weasel out of a binding arbitration. Hence, the East's credibility is necessarily suspect and no such suspicion has arisen from the West's actions.

Additionally, certain Easties have already proven themselves liars. Remember them testifying in court, under oath, that they didn't believe the arbitrator's ruling would be binding? Everybody knows that was an ex post facto attempt at a defense argument. At least when you guys say, "We feel the Nicolau list is unfair so anything we do is justified" you're being honest. Turns out you're also breaking the law.

So that's why we don't take your word for it when you tell us support for your Dear Leader Cleary is so great.

BTW, are you "supremely confident" in the success of your appeal? Do you really think counselor Seham's interpretation of case law is superior to Judge Wake's?

 

[USA320Pilot]

HP_FA,

HP_FA said: "Seham has protected himself and his firm so that they will squeeze out every possible drop of both life and money from USAPA. Once the end is in sight I would not be surprised to see Seham, as one final act, draw up some kind of indemnity agreement to the benefit of SSM&P. That would be just a perfect frosting for this debacle."

USA320Pilot comments: I agree with you and I believe your comment regarding SSM&P is one of the major issues facing the pilot group, other employees, and the company. This firm is telling USAPA and their supporters what they want to hear, not the facts. If USAPA's leaders would tell the pilots the truth then I believe we would not be in this mess, which is affecting the entire company. Not only is Seham and his firm taking a position to "squeeze out every possible drop of both life and money from USAPA", so is the BPR and their loyal friends. For more information on this point click here to read why.

Furthermore, what pilots and other employees need to understand is the truth regarding the Nicolau Award not what USAPA's BPR wants you to hear. For more information on that point click here.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[HPearlyretiree]

The company went into bankrupts to weasel out of binding arbitration rulings with all unions.Sneaky and dishonest, kinda like

Tu quoque fallacy, a pretty lame one at that.

Again, you guy try to bring the company into this. Guess what, your old USAirways 2 bankrupt company is dead and gone. So, stop flogging that dead horse. More deflection, own up to the fact that the East pilots welched on their promises, and that USAPA was formed to screw the west and get out of your agreements.