US Pilots Labor Topic-Aug 1-5

[cleardirect]

Megasnoop

You make some very good points, as do some others who post here regularly or on occassion. I don't know if you are an officer or BPR rep in USAPA or not. But this USAPA policy of not engaging in internet forums is poor strategy and flawed policy.

Even more flawed is USAPA's decision not to have a pilot forum on their own website. Best I can tell, this and Pilotloop have become the substitutes. Pilotloop even more so because anonymity is not an option. These forums are the virtual crew meetings of today's internet age and commuting lifestyle.

USA320Pilot has made good use of this on the other forum, with no counter from someone in USAPA's hierarchy. ALPA supporters have also chimed in. Only JJ, one of USAPA's founders has posted there. But JJ gets a bit defensive when his position is attacked and so his posts become belligerent sounding and lose credibility.

I have encouraged USAPA's elected to take advantage and participate but to no avail. Internet "trash talk" can go a long way in undermining a union's image if left unapposed. Remember that USAPA would have lost had just a few hundred voted the other way.

Many more of us log in here and at Pilotloop, compared to attending meetings, to take the pulse of what other pilot's are thinking and saying. The ALPA loyalists are making a full court press on the Loop. Rank and filers are listening. USAPA's elected are conspicuously absent.

Just my humble opinion.

I agree with you. In today’s age of internet, a usapa web board would be a good starting place. On any one day 2/3 of us are out flying. With a large number commuting, it is almost impossible to attend a meeting. I have also contacted the officers about a usapa board using real names. The answer. “NO WAY.â€￾

Whether we like it or not all of us are stuck together for the foreseeable future. The only way that we are going to get along is to understand each other. That means communicating. Hurtling insults and anonymous keyboard attacks will not solve anything. It starts slowly, JS conversations, curb chats waiting for the van, overnight conversations in the bar and web board debates.

What I have found from usapa is a great need to CONTROL the information. Reading the communication coming from usapa. It is obvious that Theurer is a spin master. There is just enough truth in the message, but the impression it leaves is generally different then what is going on.

It is also apparent that other than the few loyal usapa supporters on the web. There does not seem to be a lot of support from the rank and file. Why is that? I guess it becomes harder and harder to defend an indefensible position. It is difficult to argue in an open forum when usapa withholds information or delays its release for a few days.

It you notice it is always the west guys that have the information first. By at least a couple of days. That leaves the east supporters scrambling to defend something they know nothing about. So what we get is the usual defense.

ALPA was bad, usapa is not as bad as ALPA, usapa threw ALPA off the property. I get to vote. Always the same theme. But if you look at the latest elections. Less then half of the members voted. What kind of support is usapa still getting?

If usapa is on the right side of issues, why are they afraid of open communications? Why is Cleary afraid of a web board with names on it?

ps. I think you are right about snoop being connected.

 

[Black Flag]

I agree with you. In today’s age of internet, a usapa web board would be a good starting place. On any one day 2/3 of us are out flying. With a large number commuting, it is almost impossible to attend a meeting. I have also contacted the officers about a usapa board using real names. The answer. “NO WAY.â€￾

Whether we like it or not all of us are stuck together for the foreseeable future. The only way that we are going to get along is to understand each other. That means communicating. Hurtling insults and anonymous keyboard attacks will not solve anything. It starts slowly, JS conversations, curb chats waiting for the van, overnight conversations in the bar and web board debates.

What I have found from usapa is a great need to CONTROL the information. Reading the communication coming from usapa. It is obvious that Theurer is a spin master. There is just enough truth in the message, but the impression it leaves is generally different then what is going on.

It is also apparent that other than the few loyal usapa supporters on the web. There does not seem to be a lot of support from the rank and file. Why is that? I guess it becomes harder and harder to defend an indefensible position. It is difficult to argue in an open forum when usapa withholds information or delays its release for a few days.

It you notice it is always the west guys that have the information first. By at least a couple of days. That leaves the east supporters scrambling to defend something they know nothing about. So what we get is the usual defense.

ALPA was bad, usapa is not as bad as ALPA, usapa threw ALPA off the property. I get to vote. Always the same theme. But if you look at the latest elections. Less then half of the members voted. What kind of support is usapa still getting?

If usapa is on the right side of issues, why are they afraid of open communications? Why is Cleary afraid of a web board with names on it?

ps. I think you are right about snoop being connected.

Does anyone remember ALPA blocking, censoring and or deleting posts not to their liking? Not everyone chooses to stay informed through the use of these web boards. I would say most do not. Only those of us who apparently have no life!!

 

[Piedmont1984]

Does anyone remember ALPA blocking, censoring and or deleting posts not to their liking? Not everyone chooses to stay informed through the use of these web boards. I would say most do not. Only those of us who apparently have no life!!

The ALPA forum was a mud pit, very little censorship, but a well populated one. I still think that is better than no forum at all. Democracy after all, should be an unrully, sometimes ugly process at the grass roots.

My last post was at least several days ago, so I do have a life.

And I would say that the vast majority do not stay informed by attending union meetings. We talk to each other, we read official releases, we interact on the various forums. More pilots attend this site or Pilotloop during any 24 hour period than any union meeting, USAPA or ALPA.

 

[cleardirect]

Does anyone remember ALPA blocking, censoring and or deleting posts not to their liking? Not everyone chooses to stay informed through the use of these web boards. I would say most do not. Only those of us who apparently have no life!!

Again, same excuse. ALPA was bad, look what ALPA did.

This is what usapa does and what are they going to do going forward.

Other points of view are important. Reading Provda, I mean official usapa communication leaves a lot out. Why not have a web site?

 

[hp_fa]

With the reappearance of certain posters here and elsewhere, I'm thinking that ALPA is commencing another FUD campaign. There is less than a year left until they can file for another CBA election. That would be just like the ALPA of old. I can only hope that others see this like I do, as sneaky as dishonest as when they were on the property before.

I actually drafted this response to Oldiebutgoody in another thread that went away before I hit the send button. Oldie had used the terms "unbiased" and "fair and balanced" in his response and I don't think that those terms, by themselves, are objectionable. So I am posting the response the way it was intended to be posted, which I also believe is non-incendiary.


I really don't believe, at least at this point in time, that National ALPA would have any part in any campaign. Past members of ALPA? Sure. But USAPA also has past ALPA members, who were in policy positions both then and now. I still wish that someone could come up with a term that differentiates National ALPA from what is commonly referred to as the local ALPA. It causes confusion within discussions.

As for the "unbiased" equation with "fair and balanced" I guess it is what it is. I am definitely not a fan of the "fair and balanced" news network and understand that it is a nice phrase but the reality tends to be somewhat unfair and very unbalanced.

I generally stay away from pilot issues that deal with things I have no real knowledge of and no background understanding. That said I can say that what I have seen quoted from USAPA regarding the legal stuff, which I do have a background in and some knowledge of, could often be at best classified as wrong. At worst it could be classified as propaganda and disinformation that is very much akin to what was being fed to the pilots by the AAA MEC before and during Nicolau. Frankly, from my perspective, the legal interpretation coming from USAPA has been so biased that it virtually screamed for a response because of its wrong interpretation of what was actually occurring.

Perhaps "unbiased" has and is somewhat more of a swing to the dead-center than the USAPA version of "fair and balanced". However, again from my view, the "unbiased" reaction to "fair and balanced" has not been to the degree of what MSNBC became to Fox News.

 

[Poug Darker]

QUOTE (USA320Pilot @ Aug 1 2009, 08:11 PM)
USA320Pilot comments: However, if ALPA is re-elected (now that the new Representatation campaign has started) their Constitution and By-Laws permits the Union to permanently ban certain pilots from union membership so they can never be elected or hold a union position again.

Wow, that would be great. I'm familiar with some guys that would be very conflicted about rejoining the 'mother ship' in Herndon, for a lot of reasons that I'm sure we're all very cognizant of. This little provision would certainly make their day, where can they sign up?
Cheers.

 

[Megasnoop]

I think we've all had enough of unbiased "un-facts" for a while. Fact is, unbiased facts aren't "facts" at all. The link about FPL abuse was untrue, meant to deceive.

Scott Theuer holds seniority #1809 and Tracy Parrella #1829. They can both can hold C/O positions, but unbiased "facts" lists Scott as an "A320 First Officer Scott Theuer’s USAPA Monthly Pay and Perks". Its a lie. In fact Scott has been an A-320 C/O for the last 6 bids. Thats as far back as I wasted time going.

USAPA Officials on full time FPL “Will Be Paid No More Than What Their Seniority Can Hold." Please, can anyone give one example, one pilot, where that is not true?

Looking at Bid 09-04 results (and that doesn't start until October), I see they can hold captain in PHL 737, LGA A-320 Captain and BOS. Theuer can hold BOS A320 Capt as well. Remember this is for a downbid in October 09. They can hold higher than the bottom now and still hold C/O in October. On filing expenses/per diem, on or off the property, in this job or any, those at unbiased "facts" who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

USAPA is in fact working under LOA 95. ALPA is the gift that keeps on giving. No one really knew what all the old MECs hidden pay agendas really were, who got what or why. LOA95 paid all full-time FPLers (AFBs) "current monthly pay cap hours." USAPAs reimbursement is a lot less at 85. It is contractually set that a pilot on full time union flight pay loss gets paid what they can hold. Duane Woerth signed that little known LOA with the company just prior to the merger, September 23, 2005, when everyone was distracted in different directions.

If you look at Bid09-04 you will not find their names on this bid. The reason is so that they don't take up space for another blockholder. This system has been abused in the past under ALPA. We saw it many times. But it isn't being abused now. No grandfather rights in there. If you cant hold it, you dont get paid for it. If they can hold a bid in October, Bid 09-04, they can certainly hold one now. The Unbiased "Facts" is a lie. It shows Scott and Tracy as holding FO positions and goes from there to say they are making $40 to $60K more a year. Its just not so.

This LOA95 mess was brought to us by the old MEC and ALPA. They built it into the contract. The company has to go along to make a change. Even so, USAPA wont have any part of it, limiting FPL to 85 hours/month. Thanks to KimSnyder and other ALPA FPLers. Back on topic, unbiased "facts" portrays Thueur as an FO. He's not. Tracy can hold CA and she's paid that. Bob Davison can hold A-330 and thats what he's paid. Amazing what the untruth squad can put out.


All pitchers are liars or crybabies. Yogi Berra

 

[EastUS]

Thanks, It seems the east jumpseat capacity is a little less accomodating than the West as all or almost all our entire fleet has two.

That's nice. Call us all IF the wonderful west EVER actually grows up enough to reach the required level of professionalism to afford said seats to their "fellow pilots"....otherwise; who cares if you have 12 on each aircraft?

In proper fairness to you as an individual nic4; I realize that both of us have often posted our personal practice of not denying seats to the "other side".

 

[EastUS]

So, after relating that sentiment to the rest of us on the information super-highway,

Exactly which "us" are you speaking of here? According to your own posts; you're neither a pilot here, nor any semblance of a dues paying member. Again, and without personal offense meant; precisely WHAT possible, logical reason do any that are actually US have to concern themselves with your thoughts or notions of what the union should ever do?

 

[EastUS]

Should USAPA MIGS get to vote on going forward with the appeal. Yes or No?

Addendum: To what actual purpose? The results would be almost identical to a vote on whether or not it's a good idea to have the sun rise again in the morning. Is there truly any rational reason to waste resources for a vote on either?...other than to amuse or placate a bunch of westies that are largely non-members/non-payers? That rabid westies don't believe or simply can't understand that's of no actual importance. Nothing prevents any and all members in good standing from campaigning for a vote on anything. No matter really, as I get the contained (and amazing) west fantasy herein = "Hah!..the east is afraid to have a vote on the sun again rising!".."The west knows that the membership would actually insist on being thrown into eternal darkness!"

 

[EastUS]

As I've stated before, it's just a matter of when, not if and any delay will eventually be reconciled with east pilots sitting of reserve for the remainder of their careers.

Btw; Thanks for illustrating yet another "benefit" a great many east pilots, even those with years and years in their pre-merger positions, would receive from the "fair and equitable" nic. Wow!...talk about the purest and most raw evidencing of plain old west greed.

Keep those west cards and kisses coming. At the rate things are going; we should be able to vote nic into existence any moment now.....

 

[Megasnoop]

Megasnoop

You make some very good points, as do some others who post here regularly or on occassion. I don't know if you are an officer or BPR rep in USAPA or not. But this USAPA policy of not engaging in internet forums is poor strategy and flawed policy.

Other than being a card-carying member and using my phone to get the facts, I have no other inside info or position. I dont think Ive ever been used to back-door something. But as far as being connected, other than my North Phillie roots and my friend "Sal the Mouse"

Even more flawed is USAPA's decision not to have a pilot forum on their own website. Best I can tell, this and Pilotloop have become the substitutes. Pilotloop even more so because anonymity is not an option. These forums are the virtual crew meetings of today's internet age and commuting lifestyle.

Thats a 2-edge sword. This chat board is a commercial enterprise. We use it as privledge, not a union right. They have no obligation to free speech. PilotLoop or a union chat would be for the members' own use, non-commercial. As much as this chat board requires constant monitoring, can you imagine the disputes arise over free speech if we had our own? We'd have claims violation of the Labor Bill of Rights regarding free speech. Cant imagine which side would be doing the most complaining. Every post would have to be reviewed, edited, removed if necessary. You got any one in mind to do it full time? Because thats what it would take. It also would have major exposure to the union for frivolous complaints. Big can of worms.

USA320Pilot has made good use of this on the other forum, with no counter from someone in USAPA's hierarchy. I have encouraged USAPA's elected to take advantage and participate but to no avail.

If you call posting links to total fabrications (like saying Thueur and Parella are abusing FPL to the tune of $46K to $60K/yr) to be good use. I call it outrageous abuse of this or any board. Maybe USAPA ought to have a full-time Bull screener who does nothing but dispell the myths and lies. But who? Paying a pilot full-time FPL to police a chat board? Just one more thing for the NIC and ALPA lovers to complain about. Let us know how you would pay for it.

Internet "trash talk" can go a long way in undermining a union's image if left unapposed. Remember that USAPA would have lost had just a few hundred voted the other way.

Thats why a number of us continue to post, to shoot down the myths and lies. One thing a union web board would not have is anonymity. I dont think we'd see the West flame throwers tossing out as much untrue attacks. I actually log on to PilotLoop, but seldom post anymore. Its dominated by west pilots with the same old song. Theyre mostly talking to themselves. They may stir the West troops, but have little influence on East members. Theyre talking to themselves. And even though you cant be anonymous, like Unbiased "Facts" and USAPAwatch, we have no idea who is running them, although with UFacts and USAPAwatch we have a good idea who they are.

Another post said ALPA didn't censor. Not so. During the USAPA drive any post mention of "alternative" representation got removed. All in all, I dont see a lot of up side to a union board as long as the NIC is on appeal.

You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there. Yogi Berra

 

[Piedmont1984]

Thats a 2-edge sword. This chat board is a commercial enterprise. We use it as privledge, not a union right. They have no obligation to free speech. PilotLoop or a union chat would be for the members' own use, non-commercial. As much as this chat board requires constant monitoring, can you imagine the disputes arise over free speech if we had our own? We'd have claims violation of the Labor Bill of Rights regarding free speech. Cant imagine which side would be doing the most complaining. Every post would have to be reviewed, edited, removed if necessary. You got any one in mind to do it full time? Because thats what it would take. It also would have major exposure to the union for frivolous complaints. Big can of worms.








You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there. Yogi Berra

Most of USAPA's other committees are well populated. No significant shortage of volunteers throughout the spectrum. If a forum was announced on the condition that it would need volunteers to contribute the time to manage it - my guess is it would be up and running by next week.

Other than editing and restricting posts regarding a change in CBA, the ALPA forum was a free for all. Notwithstanding, many managed to discuss even that taboo subject by employing a little creativity.

USAPA could issue a disclaimer to insulate themselves from legal claims. The forum would be a free fire zone.

I still prefer the can of worms to the can of sardines approach.

 

[nic4us]

That's nice. Call us all IF the wonderful west EVER actually grows up enough to reach the required level of professionalism to afford said seats to their "fellow pilots"....otherwise; who cares if you have 12 on each aircraft?

In proper fairness to you as an individual nic4; I realize that both of us have often posted our personal practice of not denying seats to the "other side".

The most available seats on a West aircraft would be 5 on the new 321s. Two on the flightdeck and three additional cabin jumpseats. However, in order to carry five jumpseaters, three would have to be West and occupy the cabin seats and I do not know if load planning has the ability to fill all the cabin jumpseats.

I was simply asking about the east fleet because it occured to me that you may not have as great a capacity as the West to accomodate jumpseat request and therefore some denials may have been mistaken as an east/west discrimination issue, when there may have been an alternative explanation.

 

[EastUS]

I was simply asking about the east fleet because it occured to me that you may not have as great a capacity as the West to accomodate jumpseat request and therefore some denials may have been mistaken as an east/west discrimination issue, when there may have been an alternative explanation.

Understood. As previously noted from our mutual postings: I don't fret over ever being denied a ride by yourself personally, nor would you or yours ever be denied by me. It seems the west has a much more favorable situation regarding jump seat availability, and it would be well for all concerned if the east's jump seat situation can eventually be enhanced as well. Industry conditions have suffered such a decline in recent years that it behooves us all to maximize what few benefits we can for each other.