US Pilots Labor Topic-Aug 1-5

[Barrister]

Doesn't section VI A of the TA specify the Pilot Integration be based on the Negotiation of a Single Agreement, not it's ratification?

Lemme see if I got your logic: When we start neegotiation something with NIC in it it becomes effective.......NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I don't thnk so. Try another one, 3 for a dolla

VNIIMN

 

[Phoenix]

There is some truth to this I believe, are former APLO leaders had pretty much one goal ,which was to get in to national, regardless of what the line pilot wanted. That is no longer true we finally have people that represent the line pilot. Democracy works

Works?! That dear sir depends on how one defines "works". ALPA and its minister would likely express in most certain terms that democracy does NOT work. In my ALPA experience, I never once felt ALPA believed the pilots are smart enough to make democracy work.

But then after all it was democracy that put ALPA and its ministers out of work, so perhaps they have a point regarding "democracy" and "working".

 

[nic4us]

Quick question. How many flightdeck jumpseats are there on a 190? Also, do any of the east aircraft have only one jumpseat?

West had 737s that only had one, do any of the east 757s 767s only have one jumpseat? What about the east 737s?

I am just assuming all Airbuses have two, so correct me if I am wrong there also.

 

[HPDriver]

First, let me commend you on your formatting skill, or lack thereof.

Second, I'm not your son.

And third, it's quite obvious now after reading your post that wisdom does not necessarily come with age.

Now, moving on.

1) Son...you've merely illustrated the typical misunderstanding of life's proceedings, properly attendant to callow youth. ANYTHING which has not yet happened, save only one's eventual extinction (and arguably...taxes) 😉 is ALWAYS a matter of "IF"

True, but when one sees the headlights of a truck bearing down on him with no place to run, one can logically come to the conclusion that he's not going to fair well.

And isn't hypocritical of you, who preaches patience as a virtue, to think that something need happen so quickly after Wake's injunction. I think everyone out West understands our judicial system and its beat. As I've stated before, it's just a matter of when, not if and any delay will eventually be reconciled with east pilots sitting of reserve for the remainder of their careers.

See 1) above. "May" represents no lack of faith, but merely rational acknowledgement of actual reality, and how that last is always unknown within any possible future. Your standard west "certainties" however, are, as usual, most amusing. 😉

Considering the talk used to be a more definite "when" and has since shifted to "may", I do find the east's confidence trending in a negative direction.

EastUS: That certainly seems a very real possibility. Umm..would you care to wager on the longevity and likely scale of protracted ops attendant to PHX/LAS's futures?......Again..see 1) above 🙄 Has it even EVER occurred to you that management would, most likely, just love to further draw down west flying, and that the only thing between you and that happening is the union?..which is...however inconvenient for you...dominated by the vast majority that are the east pilots? Just an observation 😉 Should any relaxation in the TA, by way of side letters/etc ever occur, so as to perhaps modify or even avoid a BK proceeding.....well...No matter...as I'm sure you would all just scream out that you would instantly sue everyone to death and that all would be well...but...you would be screaming and sueing from the street...separate operations and all that.

Ya, USAPA is keeping the West from being drawn down - rrrriiiiggghhhht.

Unfortunately for you, the only drawing down will come in the east as you are still above min block hours. And that's aside from the EMB's going away.

EastUS:Huh?...You can't even possibly, not even remotely,...now be implying that the hated USAPA will come through for you on that, and that you're actually counting on the union to do so...can you? :blink: I thought they did/do everything "wrong", and lose at every turn.....or...is it now the case that while you're optimistic about a block hours win...ummm...but yet..the LOA disputes are "certainly" dead ends? From which particular direction is the very variable west wind currently blowing with your latest?

I don't think even USAPA can pull a USAPA on this slam dunk but I could be wrong. Their record is pretty dismal and their incompetence supreme.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Quick question. How many flightdeck jumpseats are there on a 190? Also, do any of the east aircraft have only one jumpseat?

West had 737s that only had one, do any of the east 757s 767s only have one jumpseat? What about the east 737s?

I am just assuming all Airbuses have two, so correct me if I am wrong there also.

East metal:

E190s have one jumpseat

All Airbus 319/320/321 have two

Some 737s have two...depends on the tail number

All 757s have one, except the three former ATA birds which have two

All 767s have two

All A330s have two

But most transatlantic flights carry IROs, effectively eliminating one jumpseat for "guest" jumpseat riders.

 

[luvthe9]

Works?! That dear sir depends on how one defines "works". ALPA and its minister would likely express in most certain terms that democracy does NOT work. In my ALPA experience, I never once felt ALPA believed the pilots are smart enough to make democracy work.

But then after all it was democracy that put ALPA and its ministers out of work, so perhaps they have a point regarding "democracy" and "working".

I meant it works in the sense that we were able to get rid of ALPA, unless your are one of the ones that misses them.

 

[EastUS]

Second, I'm not your son.

As I've stated before, it's just a matter of when, not if and any delay will eventually be reconciled with east pilots sitting of reserve for the remainder of their careers.

1) True. Life does, very thankfully, sometimes afford us all some real mercy.

2) Feel free to "state" all you wish. Such "stating" means less than nothing, but do so if it amuses you...as well as the rest of us of course 😉 Call us all when any west pilots are actually bidding into east bases.

 

[LSS]

I meant it works in the sense that we were able to get rid of ALPO, unless your are one of the ones that misses them.

Naaahhhh... not Phoenix!

 

[john john]

East metal:

Some 737s have two...depends on the tail number

Care to explain the reason behind this
Red tail Blue tail

 

[BoeingBoy]

It's been a long time so someone may be able to correct me, but I believe so. US even removed the second j/s from some of the PI planes after that merger.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

It's been a long time so someone may be able to correct me, but I believe so. US even removed the second j/s from some of the PI planes after that merger.

Jim

They started to do that until the pilots (Pi mostly) screamed bloody murder. So they stopped decommissioning second jumpseats on PI 737 after the first few. I think it helped that the 737 fleet captain post-merger was a PI pilot, and he convinced flight ops of the error of their ways.

All the PI ordered/delivered 737s had two jumpseats. None of the US ordered/delivered 737-300 had two jumpseats. I believe that many of the original -400 airframes that PI ordered (but US took delivery on) were changed before delivery to the single jumpseat configuration. When the fleet was in its heyday, most of the -300s had two jumpseats, and most of the -400s did not.

Now, I don't think there are more than a handful of -300s on the east, if any at all.

 

[USA320Pilot]

HP-FA,

HP-FA said: "It seems that the previous arguments about ALPA really didn't deal with ALPA itself, but rather the people elected, appointed or volunteering their time to help their other pilots. A lot of the same people are doing the same type of work for USAPA as they did with ALPA and if the name changed to Joe Blow's Labor Union it is likely the same people would still be doing similar work. So I contend that most of the problems are really with the pilot's themselves in that not enough of the workforce offers themselves for election, appointment, volunteering for positions with the union or even taking the time to fully consider the various issues confronting you in your workplace and voting and making your considered opinions known to your fellow pilots. Change comes from within, not from changing the name or changing the firm that acts as General Counsel to the union."

USA320Pilot comments: I agree with your post and I believe your comments are accurate. It's not the name on the union door that is the problem, it's the same people running the union. However, if ALPA is re-elected (now that the new Representatation campaign has started) their Constitution and By-Laws permits the Union to permanently ban certain pilots from union membership so they can never be elected or hold a union position again. I believe if ALPA is re-elected that is exactly what will happen to the former RC4/Hardliners.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[USA320Pilot]

Nycbusdriver said: "If those fees are imposed (HP_FA doesn't think the figure will stand...only less than half), it will not come out of the east pockets. It will come out of all pockets. Every pilot covered by contracts administered by USAPA will have this fee charged."

USA320Pilot comments: According to a Pilotloop post the Leonidas Group is award of this point and they have made Judge Wake aware this point. The Leonidas position is that it is unfair for West pilots to have their dues pay them self damages. Judge Wake has a lot of discretion and power here. In my opinion based on his sentiment, he could write an order forcing damages to be paid by the East pilots to the West pilots because of the DFR guilty verdict and "class action" aspect to the damages trial.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Dog Wonder]

The only solution is to put you in power.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Leonidas filed a Plaintiffs' Motion for Attorneys' Fees in the Federal District Court of Arizona.

Here is the text of the filing (Doc 600):

Plaintiffs Don ADDINGTON, John BOSTIC, Mark BURMAN, Afshin IRANPOUR, Roger VELEZ, and Steve WARGOCKI, on behalf of the West Pilot Class, move this Court for an Order awarding attorneys’ fees in their favor. This motion is brought pursuant to Local Rule 54.2 and results from the Partial Judgment and Permanent Injunction in this matter dated July 17, 2009. (Doc. 594.)

Plaintiffs are entitled to an award of attorneys’ fees and other litigation related expenses pursuant to common benefit doctrine and a combination of intra-litigation and pre-litigation bad faith. See, generally, Hall v. Cole, 412 U.S. 1, 6 (1973) (applying common benefit doctrine to union); Ass’n of Flight Attendants, AFL-CIO, v. Horizon Air Industries, Inc., 976 F.2d 541, 550 (9th Cir. 1992) (recognizing importance of bad faith element when applying common benefit doctrine); Int’l. Union of Petroleum & Indus. Workers v. Western Indus. Maintenance, Inc., 707 F.2d 425, 428 (9th Cir. 1983) (awarding fees for “defendant's obstinancy in granting a plaintiff his clear legal rights necessitated resort to legal action with all the expense and delay entailed in litigationâ€); Int’l Ass’n of Machinists & Aerospace Workers, Dist. 776 v. Texas Steel Co., 538 F.2d 1116, 1122 (5th Cir. 1976) (awarding fees where “refusal to abide by [an] arbitration award [creating a compromise integration of seniority lists] was without justificationâ€);Williams v. Lane, 96 F.R.D. 383 (N.D. Ill. 1982) (awarding fees based upon bad faith challenge to class certification).

The estimated amount of attorneys’ fees and other litigation related expenses sought in connection with this motion is approximately $1.8 million, including fees expected to be incurred in connection with the briefing of this motion and the preparation of the required memorandum, which will be submitted under separate cover.

Dated this 30th day of July, 2009.