US Pilots Labor Topic-Aug 1-5

[ableoneable]

A more mature person would read that as the process that warrants the moniker, "kangaroo court". A less mature would take it as an attack. Any legal process that narrowly defines evidence in order to guarantee a desired outcome is a kangaroo court, by definition.

Nice reach, but not credible.

Anyone who had been paying attention knew what evidence the court would and would not allow. Only USAPA and their supporters believed that the trial would be about the alleged unfairness of the Nicolau award.

That was never what this trial was about. The ninth circuit is not gong to hear any of the excluded evidence either. It is not germain to the question before the court.

It appears that you will soon attach the Kangaroo appellation to the ninth circuit as well, for when they find that USAPA's appeal has no merit they must too be relegated to kangaroo status.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Ableoneable posted an open letter from Rich Alter, a man with an enormous amount of integrity and character, to the BPR announcing his intent to become an Objector. It is my understanding USAPA reponded to Rich's letter that he missed his window of opportunity and he will have to wait until next year" to become an Objector. What a bunch of USAPA B.S.!

I would like to hear comments from USAPA supporters on your thoughts on Rich's letter to USAPA's BPR. There is no finer man and union volunteer than Rich Alter. Come on USAPA supporters, I want to hear your comments on Rich's letter to the BPR!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA LAS VEGAS DOMICILE UPDATE - August 3, 2009

Fellow Pilots,

This update is probably more directed to our East pilots than to our West pilots. I will give you a few examples of seniority using the US Jan/08 list and the NIC. These are not speculations or assumptions, they are only the absolutely factual numbers that can be verified by anyone. I encourage you to run the numbers to look at your personal situation; you may be surprised with the truth. The list that I used to find Jan/08 positions is available at Wings, on our Flight Ops page.

I requested that USAPA publish the updated Nicolau list on the Web site; hopefully they will make it available to you. To get a clear picture of seniority, one must take a look where he/she stands percentage wise on a pre-merger list and compare where he/she stands on a combined list. The most senior group stands in the top 1% and the most junior in the bottom 99%. Our discrepancy is a result of a pre-merger 99% group with 18 years on the list at US and a 99% group with 6 months at HP.

That’s one of the reasons that DOH was erased right from the beginning as a seniority integration method during arbitration. I also would like to mention that DAL/NWA seniority integration is quite similar to our arbitration. It came to me as no surprise that, even though the DAL/NWA arbitration was widely available to the airline community, USAPA never mentioned it in its communication to our pilots. Coincidence? SORRY I AM UNABLE TO POST THE TABLE, PLEASE REFER TO USAPA WEBSITE UNDER LAS UPDATE To understand the table above, look at your seniority number on the left. That’s someone’s seniority number at AWA or AAA. Move to the right for your respective airline to verify where you stand today, and compare where you will stand upon implementation of the NIC. Interpolate as necessary to adjust for your number. As you can see, there are winners and losers on both sides of the list.

Very senior AWA pilots lose 8% seniority; very junior AAA pilots lose 6% seniority. For pilots in the middle of both lists, the gain/loss is almost irrelevant. The difference in seniority for the junior AAA pilots is certainly due to the fact that AAA had 1800 pilots on furlough and AWA didn’t have any. The difference in seniority for the AWA senior pilots is due to NIC having more than 500 AAA pilots on the top of the list. On the one hand, most East pilots that I checked stay within 3 to 5% from their position when the NIC is implemented; on the other hand, if you implement the DOH, a large number of East pilots jump between 20 and 30%!!!! I heard the “our attrition argument†many times, but if you really want to use statistics, probabilities and history, you will find that US Airways' reduction in size (furlough) was much greater than attrition due to retirement.

In my opinion, USAPA's “founding fathers†never believed that they could get out of the Nic. It is quite clear that Nicolau did not make any procedural errors in his decision. If he did, I am sure that AAA pilots would be successful in pursuing a legal venue to overturn his decision. What they knew is that they could delay its implementation for a good few years. At a time that US Airways was experiencing a number of upgrade opportunities, it appears to be a good plan to secure as many Captain slots as possible before the implementation.

The problem is that they could never admit to that, and they never will, for obvious reasons. For many First Officers, “the plan†worked well. Unfortunately we missed a great window of opportunity to negotiate a good contract when the Company was making good money. “The Plan,†for most of us, will cost thousands of dollars; for some it will be very cost effective. But again, this is only my theory.

The fact is that AAA Pilots during this last decade experienced loss after loss. From wages to pension, from work rules to domicile closings. I just would like to ask you, who was responsible for these? The America West pilots? Let’s take a look again at some facts, available from the USAPA Web site. Transition Agreement AWA/AAA Merger LOA 96 Signed by William Pollock, Dan Scola, Doug Mowery, Kim Snider, among others. July 2002 Reinstruction Agreement Signed by Cris Beebe, Kelly Ison, Philip Carey, Jeff Tokash, Donn Butkovic, among others.

LOA 93 Transformation Plan Signed by William Pollock, Doug Mowery, Theodore Schott, John Greehall, Don Hollerbach, James Jewell, among others.

LOA 92 PSA Large jets Signed by the same as LOA 93. LOA 85 Pilots, Defined Contribution Plan Signed by William Pollock, Kelly Ison, Donn Butkovik, Philip Carey, Gerry McGuckin, Jeff Tokash, among others.

These are just a few examples of past agreements. All the names that you see above are AAA Pilots, not AWA Pilots or ALPA National. All of these agreements that terminated your pension, reduced our wages and changed your work rules are signed by AAA Pilots. Pilots that in some way or another were put in their positions by AAA Pilots. I hope that these facts will help you understand the West pilots' positions and actions towards USAPA. As cloudy as it looks, most of us are looking forward to the day that we will be able to work in a friendly and rewarding environment.

Marcio Lucchese
LAS Chairman

 

[USA320Pilot]

LEONIDAS UPDATE - AUGUST 04, 2009

Fellow US Airways pilots,

We just received some very good news for all US Airways pilots as the 9th Circuit has fast tracked USAPA's (futile) appeal.

Appellant's unopposed motion for expedition is granted. The opening brief is due September 25, 2009; the answering brief is due October 26, 2009; and the optional reply brief is due within 14 days after service of the answering brief.

This case shall be placed on the December 2009 calendar.

For the Court:

MOLLY C. DWYER
Clerk of the Court

Lorela Bragado-Sevillena
Deputy Clerk

Ninth Circuit Rule 27-7/Advisory Note to Rule 27 and Ninth Circuit Rule 27-10

The end is in sight as the chances of the US Supreme Court ever granting a USAPA Motion of Certiorari and hear an appeal from the 9th Circuit is infinitesimally small. Also, note that USAPA motion for an expedited appeal was unopposed by the Plaintiffs. The reason why we were not opposed to this is because it is imperative that this matter be buried once and for all. We hope to have a decision from the 9th Circuit in February or March of 2010.

It's amazing how fast our case has moved through the justice system. Exactly 11 months ago we filed our initial complaint and look where we are now! We all heard on the USAPA campaign videos that Seham's Plan B was to delay whatever DFR action was to be filed by the America West pilots over many years, just like what has occured with the TWA pilots. By the time we ever got to having our case adjudicated, the plan was to delay long enough so that the East would have just about robbed us entirely of our seniority rights emanating from Nicolau. Sure we'd have a recovery . . . in 2015! Too late then. Now, we're looking at having this entire matter settled in early 2010 and after that there will be no more excuses for East and West to move ahead - together - as labor should.

This is over folks.

One more item . . . West pilots - this is not free. Although we filed for attorney's fees, a fee award is not guaranteed. We must anticipate funding this litigation entirely on our own. The lowest paid pilot is making $75,000 +. At this point we shouldn't have to still be asking for donations, but the fact of the matter is that only about half of this pilot group have hit the $1,000 target. Leonidas has been up and running for two years this month. If every pilot had donated just $40 a month since Leonidas was created, we wouldn't be writing to you today reminding the other half to donate. After our stunning successes in court on behalf of all West pilots, the fact that we are still having to ask for money is unacceptable. Donate now.

Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC

 

[Hawkhunter]

Ableoneable posted an open letter from Rich Alter, a man with an enormous amount of integrity and character, to the BPR announcing his intent to become an Objector. It is my understanding USAPA reponded to Rich's letter that he missed his window of opportunity and he will have to wait until next year" to become an Objector. What a bunch of USAPA B.S.!

I would like to hear comments from USAPA supporters on your thoughts on Rich's letter to USAPA's BPR. There is no finer man and union volunteer than Rich Alter. Come on USAPA supporters, I want to hear your comments on Rich's letter to the BPR!

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Rules are rules. B.S, maybe in your mind. We all know your story. Remember, what I said about the 90%. Later, uh...you know.

 

[cactusboy53]

Nice reach, but not credible.

Anyone who had been paying attention ......... It is not germain to the question before the court.

It appears that you will soon attach the Kangaroo appellation to the ninth circuit as well, for when they find that USAPA's appeal has no merit they must too be relegated to kangaroo status.

Able;
There you go again confusing them with FACTS. I find it assounding this court action is going at light speed.

Fly Safe...

 

[USA320Pilot]

Hawkhunter,

From Aloneable's post Rich Alter said, "But it's now time for me to step forward and say enough is enough. For over a year I have heard promise after promise, but none have come true. No contract in three months, no date of hire seniority list, and extensive abuse of union flight pay loss, instead of more volunteers giving of their time. You promised lower dues and a better accounting of every dollar spent, yet you refuse to share a budget, account for my 2008 contributions and can't accurately calculate my future dues payments. You promised transparency and an organization based on democratic principles, yet you vote behind closed doors and give yourselves pay raises knowing you have deceitfully prevented any recall actions from being proffered. You are spending over 60% of all dues collected on legal counsel and waist money on outside pension and benefit's advisors that are doing nothing positive for our pilots. You're making promises you know you can't keep and writing checks that we as members can't afford!"

"Finally, your true controlling intensions became clear when you asked all pilots to support, with an assessment, an investigation of our pension termination. In this very emotional vote, you chose to present only one side of the story which influenced the outcome. I, along with other members of the previous R & I Committee offered to write a differing view that would have given all pilots the entire story before they committed to this waste of hard earned money. USAPA refused to publish our side of the story."

"This social experiment called USAPA is not what I or other honest pilot at this airline wanted from our new union. We asked for fair representation that respected the needs and wants of everyone. We asked for leadership that practiced and encouraged democratic principles and didn't take advantage of their power positions. We asked for leaders that put the line pilot first. The sad part is we have some real talented individuals in our group that USAPA refuses to recognize or use, with years of experience and expert advice. Unfortunately your egos get in the way of your common sense."

"I only have to ask myself Am I better off today then I was two years ago? Fact is I'm not!"

"Things are actually worse now than they have ever been. The company gives USAPA leadership no respect or credibility. That has lead to real pain and suffering by many pilots and their families. That wouldn't have happened under the previous bargaining agent. It only gets worse as times goes by. How much pain will we all have to endure before others finally join me in saying it's time for a change. Unfortunately no matter what name we give this pilot organization (USAPA, ALPA, Teamsters, Etc.); we are still the same apathetic group that has allowed a hijacking of our union and the stagnation of our careers."

"Fact is USAPA and its leadership have lost touch with the needs of our pilots! So because of misleading promises and lies, because of deceitful practices, mismanagement of dues and because my membership has been ignored and disrespected, I have decided to become an objector. I ask that my dues be re-evaluated immediately to reflect my change in membership status. I await your confirmation and reply!"

USA320Pilot comments: Hawkhunter what's your opinion of Rich's comments I bolded so you could see them clearer?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[hp_fa]

Well, it sure seems as if everybody is happy about the fast track on the appeal. Maybe the decision will be out in the March-April time frame.

It tentatively appears that the oral argument will occur in San Francisco during the second week of December, but that is very fluid. Each party will have a limited amount of time, probably between 10 and 20 minutes. Oral arguments in appellate courts can seem somewhat strange to people not accustomed to appellate procedure. The attorneys usually do not have an uninterrupted opportunity to give a speech. Oft times they are lucky to get out two or three paragraphs before the first judicial interruption occurs and the questions are usually very pointed and specific.

The Ninth Circuit does both audio and video tape proceedings. The audio tape is publicly available on the day after the oral argument has occurred. The video tape is for internal use of the court. The Ninth Circuit does allow media cameras in the courtroom upon media request. Up to a total of four cameras are allowed but they may not record any conversations between attorneys and their clients.

Any questions?

 

[EastUS]

Ableoneable posted an open letter from Rich Alter, a man with an enormous amount of integrity and character,

I would like to hear comments from USAPA supporters on your thoughts on Rich's letter to USAPA's BPR. There is no finer man and union volunteer than Rich Alter. Come on USAPA supporters, I want to hear your comments on Rich's letter to the BPR!

This is all so sadly predictable......

1) No need to even address that first observation...since, after all..we have YOUR, ahem "word" on it! 🙄 Without the slightest measure of even possibly reasonable doubt, it clearly follows that ALL alpa devotees, that previously, personally enjoyed the "Mothership's" grand and gross gravy train, MUST needs be acting towards entirely selfless purposes....Uh Huh...Hokay then

2) The referenced material is coming from another, well experienced alpa shill, presumably, nowadays seeking to regain a comfy and highly inflated FPL slot (and who knows?...perhaps even..Hot Dang!!..an eventual move up to Herndon it's self!!!) 😉from a fantasized alpa resurrection. What else would you expect? Should any doubt that...check the below links. These gems were put forth during the "Great Alpa FUD Campaign"..well...at least the "Previously Great Alpa FUD Campaign", last in effect....up until the present time. 🙄

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alWVBeUJYdY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axU9DnZKExw...feature=related,

3) An amusing side issue within the wholesale and outright LYING within the "Straight Talk" FUD videos previously offered by this latest Knight of Alpa is all the fear mongering regarding a supposed destruction of the long term disability...which has recently seen a USAPA victory to the tune of many millions for those on LTD....or...did you completely miss that one? :blink:

3) Lastly; Name so much as one supposed "Promise" claimed in that "letter" that was ever actually promised? Hint= One is a number greater than zero.......

 

[EastUS]

LEONIDAS UPDATE - AUGUST 04, 2009

This is over folks.

One more item . . . West pilots - this is not free. Although we filed for attorney's fees, a fee award is not guaranteed. We must anticipate funding this litigation entirely on our own. The lowest paid pilot is making $75,000 +. At this point we shouldn't have to still be asking for donations, but the fact of the matter is that only about half of this pilot group have hit the $1,000 target. Leonidas has been up and running for two years this month. If every pilot had donated just $40 a month since Leonidas was created, we wouldn't be writing to you today reminding the other half to donate. After our stunning successes in court on behalf of all West pilots, the fact that we are still having to ask for money is unacceptable. Donate now.

Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC

"This is over folks." Indeed..."over" for well past two full years and counting now.....followed immediately by another hand-wringing cry for yet far more west donations. It would almost be funny...were it not so just plain sad.

 

[captainJack]

An open letter to the BPR and all USAir pilots from (east) pilot Rich Alter

Um, the letter is addressed to the President and the BPR.

What, exactly, leads you to believe this letter was to "all USAir pilots"?

It reads like a resignation letter, something not usually for public consumption. Typical Rich, trying to convince himself of something by writing a letter.

 

[USA320Pilot]

captainJack,

What's your opinion of Rich's comments I bolded in post number 168 so you could see them clearer?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[EastUS]

USAPA LAS VEGAS DOMICILE UPDATE - August 3, 2009

Fellow Pilots,

This update is probably more directed to our East pilots than to our West pilots.

Let’s take a look again at some facts, available from the USAPA Web site. Transition Agreement AWA/AAA Merger LOA 96 Signed by William Pollock, Dan Scola, Doug Mowery, Kim Snider, among others. July 2002 Reinstruction Agreement Signed by Cris Beebe, Kelly Ison, Philip Carey, Jeff Tokash, Donn Butkovic, among others.

LOA 93 Transformation Plan Signed by William Pollock, Doug Mowery, Theodore Schott, John Greehall, Don Hollerbach, James Jewell, among others.

LOA 92 PSA Large jets Signed by the same as LOA 93. LOA 85 Pilots, Defined Contribution Plan Signed by William Pollock, Kelly Ison, Donn Butkovik, Philip Carey, Gerry McGuckin, Jeff Tokash, among others.

These are just a few examples of past agreements. All the names that you see above are AAA Pilots, not AWA Pilots or ALPA National. All of these agreements that terminated your pension, reduced our wages and changed your work rules are signed by AAA Pilots. Pilots that in some way or another were put in their positions by AAA Pilots.

Whew! I'm seriously curious 320; especially with that esteemed and well-proven run of excellence, previously demonstrated by alpa's "elites" around the US campus....umm....well...exactly WHAT is the supposed, (or even marginally rational) argument for returning both the "Mothership" and such amazingly "capable" illuminati, towards EVER have ANY postions of power again?

"Pilots that in some way or another were put in their positions by AAA Pilots." That's actually funny.It's my memory that the "some way or another" for determining the MEC was an entirely incestuous, purely internal process amongst the alpa elite...was it not? 🙄

 

[prechilill]

LEONIDAS UPDATE - AUGUST 04, 2009

Fellow US Airways pilots,

We just received some very good news for all US Airways pilots as the 9th Circuit has fast tracked USAPA's (futile) appeal.

Appellant's unopposed motion for expedition is granted. The opening brief is due September 25, 2009; the answering brief is due October 26, 2009; and the optional reply brief is due within 14 days after service of the answering brief.

This case shall be placed on the December 2009 calendar.

For the Court:

MOLLY C. DWYER
Clerk of the Court

Lorela Bragado-Sevillena
Deputy Clerk

Ninth Circuit Rule 27-7/Advisory Note to Rule 27 and Ninth Circuit Rule 27-10

The end is in sight as the chances of the US Supreme Court ever granting a USAPA Motion of Certiorari and hear an appeal from the 9th Circuit is infinitesimally small. Also, note that USAPA motion for an expedited appeal was unopposed by the Plaintiffs. The reason why we were not opposed to this is because it is imperative that this matter be buried once and for all. We hope to have a decision from the 9th Circuit in February or March of 2010.

It's amazing how fast our case has moved through the justice system. Exactly 11 months ago we filed our initial complaint and look where we are now! We all heard on the USAPA campaign videos that Seham's Plan B was to delay whatever DFR action was to be filed by the America West pilots over many years, just like what has occured with the TWA pilots. By the time we ever got to having our case adjudicated, the plan was to delay long enough so that the East would have just about robbed us entirely of our seniority rights emanating from Nicolau. Sure we'd have a recovery . . . in 2015! Too late then. Now, we're looking at having this entire matter settled in early 2010 and after that there will be no more excuses for East and West to move ahead - together - as labor should.

This is over folks.

One more item . . . West pilots - this is not free. Although we filed for attorney's fees, a fee award is not guaranteed. We must anticipate funding this litigation entirely on our own. The lowest paid pilot is making $75,000 +. At this point we shouldn't have to still be asking for donations, but the fact of the matter is that only about half of this pilot group have hit the $1,000 target. Leonidas has been up and running for two years this month. If every pilot had donated just $40 a month since Leonidas was created, we wouldn't be writing to you today reminding the other half to donate. After our stunning successes in court on behalf of all West pilots, the fact that we are still having to ask for money is unacceptable. Donate now.

Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC

This is really good news for all USAirways pilots. I know individuals will continue to live in an alternate universe, but at least the propaganda we read from a couple USAPA insiders around here will be that much more humorous. I think everybody should pause for a moment and give thanks to the wonderful country we live in- where everybody is the master of their own choices and the maker of their own successes and failures. Our judicial system is the best ever!

 

[prechilill]

captainJack,

What's your opinion of Rich's comments I bolded in post number 168 so you could see them clearer?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

He'll get right back to you once he hears back from the BPR and Cleary...