US Pilots Labor Topic-Aug 1-5

[Freighterguynow]

LEONIDAS UPDATE - AUGUST 04, 2009

Fellow US Airways pilots,

Now, we're looking at having this entire matter settled in early 2010 and after that there will be no more excuses for East and West to move ahead - together - as labor should.

This is over folks.

No, it'll never be over - just ask a Republic/ Northwest pilot about it being ' over ' .

 

[nic4us]

Okay, run with that.

Each carrier "dissolved" itself and reconstituted as USAirways, call sign: Cactus. We had a new hire class of 5200 pilots.

What is the generally accepted manner of seniority in a new hire class? Right! By date of birth. DOB.

Tell us how different your suggestion, DOB, would be from DOH?

Thank you.

Well for starters the West would have near a hundred in the first 517. Then the West would have another 900 or so mixed into the original east who were not furloughed. Both a far cry from DOH which only has a few hundred original West above Coello.

 

[ROACLT]

USAPA LAS VEGAS DOMICILE UPDATE - August 3, 2009

Fellow Pilots,

This update is probably more directed to our East pilots than to our West pilots. I will give you a few examples of seniority using the US Jan/08 list and the NIC. These are not speculations or assumptions, they are only the absolutely factual numbers that can be verified by anyone. I encourage you to run the numbers to look at your personal situation; you may be surprised with the truth. The list that I used to find Jan/08 positions is available at Wings, on our Flight Ops page.

I requested that USAPA publish the updated Nicolau list on the Web site; hopefully they will make it available to you. To get a clear picture of seniority, one must take a look where he/she stands percentage wise on a pre-merger list and compare where he/she stands on a combined list. The most senior group stands in the top 1% and the most junior in the bottom 99%. Our discrepancy is a result of a pre-merger 99% group with 18 years on the list at US and a 99% group with 6 months at HP.

That’s one of the reasons that DOH was erased right from the beginning as a seniority integration method during arbitration. I also would like to mention that DAL/NWA seniority integration is quite similar to our arbitration. It came to me as no surprise that, even though the DAL/NWA arbitration was widely available to the airline community, USAPA never mentioned it in its communication to our pilots. Coincidence? SORRY I AM UNABLE TO POST THE TABLE, PLEASE REFER TO USAPA WEBSITE UNDER LAS UPDATE To understand the table above, look at your seniority number on the left. That’s someone’s seniority number at AWA or AAA. Move to the right for your respective airline to verify where you stand today, and compare where you will stand upon implementation of the NIC. Interpolate as necessary to adjust for your number. As you can see, there are winners and losers on both sides of the list.

Very senior AWA pilots lose 8% seniority; very junior AAA pilots lose 6% seniority. For pilots in the middle of both lists, the gain/loss is almost irrelevant. The difference in seniority for the junior AAA pilots is certainly due to the fact that AAA had 1800 pilots on furlough and AWA didn’t have any. The difference in seniority for the AWA senior pilots is due to NIC having more than 500 AAA pilots on the top of the list. On the one hand, most East pilots that I checked stay within 3 to 5% from their position when the NIC is implemented; on the other hand, if you implement the DOH, a large number of East pilots jump between 20 and 30%!!!! I heard the “our attrition argument†many times, but if you really want to use statistics, probabilities and history, you will find that US Airways' reduction in size (furlough) was much greater than attrition due to retirement.

In my opinion, USAPA's “founding fathers†never believed that they could get out of the Nic. It is quite clear that Nicolau did not make any procedural errors in his decision. If he did, I am sure that AAA pilots would be successful in pursuing a legal venue to overturn his decision. What they knew is that they could delay its implementation for a good few years. At a time that US Airways was experiencing a number of upgrade opportunities, it appears to be a good plan to secure as many Captain slots as possible before the implementation.

The problem is that they could never admit to that, and they never will, for obvious reasons. For many First Officers, “the plan†worked well. Unfortunately we missed a great window of opportunity to negotiate a good contract when the Company was making good money. “The Plan,†for most of us, will cost thousands of dollars; for some it will be very cost effective. But again, this is only my theory.

The fact is that AAA Pilots during this last decade experienced loss after loss. From wages to pension, from work rules to domicile closings. I just would like to ask you, who was responsible for these? The America West pilots? Let’s take a look again at some facts, available from the USAPA Web site. Transition Agreement AWA/AAA Merger LOA 96 Signed by William Pollock, Dan Scola, Doug Mowery, Kim Snider, among others. July 2002 Reinstruction Agreement Signed by Cris Beebe, Kelly Ison, Philip Carey, Jeff Tokash, Donn Butkovic, among others.

LOA 93 Transformation Plan Signed by William Pollock, Doug Mowery, Theodore Schott, John Greehall, Don Hollerbach, James Jewell, among others.

LOA 92 PSA Large jets Signed by the same as LOA 93. LOA 85 Pilots, Defined Contribution Plan Signed by William Pollock, Kelly Ison, Donn Butkovik, Philip Carey, Gerry McGuckin, Jeff Tokash, among others.

These are just a few examples of past agreements. All the names that you see above are AAA Pilots, not AWA Pilots or ALPA National. All of these agreements that terminated your pension, reduced our wages and changed your work rules are signed by AAA Pilots. Pilots that in some way or another were put in their positions by AAA Pilots. I hope that these facts will help you understand the West pilots' positions and actions towards USAPA. As cloudy as it looks, most of us are looking forward to the day that we will be able to work in a friendly and rewarding environment.

Marcio Lucchese
LAS Chairman

Fellow Pilots,

The following information regarding seniority has been discussed many times over, and we are presenting it to you only in response to an apparent effort to downplay the negative impact of the Nicolau list on a huge segment of the entire pilot group. USAPA will comply with all court orders, and as a result, the following discussion does not represent USAPA’s current bargaining position concerning Section 22 (Seniority). It is designed to educate the pilots on the fallacies of simplistic assumptions applied to complicated situations, and it will shed light on the equities of USAPA’s original proposal and why we expect to prevail on appeal.

The recent update from the LAS representative illustrates some of the fundamental disagreements and misunderstanding that exist within our pilot group. One area of disconnect in understanding stems from the basic definition of seniority. Some would say it is equivalent to a simple snapshot in time of relative position. Others reject that notion and believe that seniority and longevity go hand-in-hand, just as it works absent any merger. The snapshot approach is filled with traps, and while it may seem acceptable to some pilots under today’s circumstances, the potential is there for that approach to destroy the careers of those same pilots when the tide changes down the road.

Redefining seniority as a simple snapshot of relative position is problematic in other ways as well. This approach does not recognize the time in service that an individual has accrued working at a craft and replaces it instead with a value dependent upon business cycles, management and other factors outside the scope and control of labor. There is more to seniority integration than simply taking a snapshot view of two lists and a snapshot view of a combined list. This approach ignores seniority in the classic sense and may deem many years of work as a pilot as worthless. Just as important, the aging of the seniority list going forward is ignored, which may have a considerable positive or negative impact on career profiles. The impact may include changes in percentage position at retirement and possible changes in advancement rates, as well as incongruent initial list placement, such as inserting probationary pilots ahead of pilots with more than 16 years of seniority. While it may appear on the surface that relative position integration would be initially minimally disruptive, the effects become magnified with the passage of time until disparities become increasingly apparent.

Straight Date of Hire (DOH) with no conditions or restrictions would not be an appropriate method of integrating the two pilot groups involved in the US Airways/AWA merger due to the large disparity in seniority and, from that perspective only, we agree with the LAS update. That is precisely why conditions and restrictions were developed in USAPA’s original bargaining proposal. It is important to understand that conditions and restrictions would exist due to the fact that straight DOH integration would not be fair to the entire pilot group. Conditions and restrictions serve to eliminate the negative impact of discrepancies in seniority until those discrepancies are mitigated with the passage of time.

The LAS update mentioned certain East pilots gaining 20-30% in relative position with a combined DOH list. That is true and expected on a pure relative position basis. An East pilot with many more years of service would be at a higher position on a DOH list, which is simply a reflection of the much greater seniority which that pilot has accrued. However, with conditions and restrictions applied, the East pilot would be restricted from using his or her seniority to harm a West pilot. Generally speaking, a West pilot’s relative position would be protected unless the West pilot chose to bid to an East base or until the West pilot’s relative position would be better with an integrated DOH list. This would occur for the majority of West pilots with the passage of time due to the high attrition rate in the East. What the LAS update failed to mention is that, under the relative position arrangement, the majority of West pilots advance at a much greater rate and finish their careers at a more senior percentage position than would have occurred absent the merger. Because seniority is a zero sum game, this windfall comes only to the detriment of East pilots.

On average, West pilots are over 2,100 numbers higher on the Nicolau list than the East pilot below them with the same date of hire. The average West pilot retires 5% higher on that list that now includes widebody aircraft, while at the same time, the average East pilot retires 5.9% lower on the list. These are only percentages at retirement. Pre-retirement disparity is typically much greater at mid-career. For example, the author of the LAS update was hired in October 2003 and was placed on the Nicolau list just ahead of an East pilot hired in July 1987. If the Nicolau list were put in place today, the LAS update author would have already demonstrated some of the career acceleration effect that the relative positioning methodology provides for most West pilots. Right now, he would be approximately at the 74% level on the Nicolau list vs approximately 86% on the West list alone (12% difference). A significant cause of this leap in seniority is the East retirements that occurred prior to the age 65 rule change.

For an example of what happens between the initial list positioning and retirement positioning, consider the following. When the LAS update author reaches age 50, he will be approximately 29% from the top on the Nicolau list, as compared to 55% from the top on the West-only list (26% difference). Additionally, just over six years from now, the author would begin to do better with an integrated date of hire list than with a separate operation list, and it would remain as such for the remainder of his career until his retirement in 2035.

The above statistics reflect a small segment of the data that was available prior to the Addington trial and, importantly, deemed inadmissible by the court. (Note that it is exactly this type of excluded but relevant information that will be reviewed during the appeal process.)

The LAS update also made a reference to attrition. One thing that will never change is that we will all get older and eventually must retire. That fact is constant and has nothing to do with “probabilities and history†as mentioned in the LAS update. For example, by the year 2020, over 2,500 pilots will be forced to retire, with more than 2,000 of that number coming from the East pilot group. (This assumes an average age at retirement of 64, which, based upon available statistics, may be too high.) By the year 2015, the number of age-64 retirements is more than 950.

Other issues raised in the LAS update concerning low wages, lost pensions, work rule changes, etc. have nothing to do with seniority integration. The East pilots do not blame the West pilots for the failed leadership of ALPA in the past.

Seniority integration is a complex matter, which requires the utmost empathy from everyone involved in the process. Hopefully the information stated above will help provide West pilots with additional insight as to why USAPA is appealing Judge Wake’s order.

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA Update - August 4, 2009

Today, in response to a motion by USAPA's attorneys, the Ninth Circuit granted expedited treatment to USAPA's appeal from the injunction and judgment entered by Judge Wake in the Arizona federal district court case of Addington v. USAPA. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals had previously established a timely briefing schedule, but the new order advances the schedule even more. In addition, the Appeals court also ordered that the case itself "shall be placed on the December [2009] calendar." As a result, USAPA's attorneys are confident that the case will be heard in December and decided shortly thereafter.

 

[nic4us]

On average, West pilots are over 2,100 numbers higher on the Nicolau list than the East pilot below them with the same date of hire.

Seniority integration is a complex matter, which requires the utmost empathy from everyone involved in the process. Hopefully the information stated above will help provide West pilots with additional insight as to why USAPA is appealing Judge Wake’s order.

What is this 2100 numbers higher BS supposed to mean. The way I see it D. Odell is exactly 0 numbers higher than any east pilot and any West pilot with less than 2100 below them(approximately 700) could in no way be 2100 numbers higher on the Nic. This just does not add up and someone just pulled it out of their rear end.

It gives me additional insight as to why USAPA is appealing judge Wake's order, along with their other failings, they can not do math! Don't believe me, as further evidence I have a dozen or so past due bills from Rob that do not add up either.

There are numerous rationales for why the appeal should be dropped, but one overiding reason that it should go forward. In the appeal we may find some form of acceptance and closure.

 

[Hawkhunter]

"

USA320Pilot comments: Hawkhunter what's your opinion of Rich's comments I bolded so you could see them clearer?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Everybody has an opinion. Mine is ALPA has done far worse. Do you think it would be any better for us if ALPA was still here? Did national take any pay cuts when we did? Did ALPA take ANY type of cut at all when all the other airlines filed? The boys in Herndon got raises for crying out loud. I can go on and on. I know what your agenda is and I could care less what you post on this board. Actually the odds are with us because, you have been wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME. Later.....

 

[Barrister]

Hawkhunter,

From Aloneable's post Rich Alter said, "But it's now time for me to step forward and say enough is enough. For over a year I have heard promise after promise, but none have come true. No contract in three months, no date of hire seniority list, and extensive abuse of union flight pay loss, instead of more volunteers giving of their time. You promised lower dues and a better accounting of every dollar spent, yet you refuse to share a budget, account for my 2008 contributions and can't accurately calculate my future dues payments. You promised transparency and an organization based on democratic principles, yet you vote behind closed doors and give yourselves pay raises knowing you have deceitfully prevented any recall actions from being proffered. You are spending over 60% of all dues collected on legal counsel and waist money on outside pension and benefit's advisors that are doing nothing positive for our pilots. You're making promises you know you can't keep and writing checks that we as members can't afford!"

"Finally, your true controlling intensions became clear when you asked all pilots to support, with an assessment, an investigation of our pension termination. In this very emotional vote, you chose to present only one side of the story which influenced the outcome. I, along with other members of the previous R & I Committee offered to write a differing view that would have given all pilots the entire story before they committed to this waste of hard earned money. USAPA refused to publish our side of the story."

"This social experiment called USAPA is not what I or other honest pilot at this airline wanted from our new union. We asked for fair representation that respected the needs and wants of everyone. We asked for leadership that practiced and encouraged democratic principles and didn't take advantage of their power positions. We asked for leaders that put the line pilot first. The sad part is we have some real talented individuals in our group that USAPA refuses to recognize or use, with years of experience and expert advice. Unfortunately your egos get in the way of your common sense."

"I only have to ask myself Am I better off today then I was two years ago? Fact is I'm not!"

"Things are actually worse now than they have ever been. The company gives USAPA leadership no respect or credibility. That has lead to real pain and suffering by many pilots and their families. That wouldn't have happened under the previous bargaining agent. It only gets worse as times goes by. How much pain will we all have to endure before others finally join me in saying it's time for a change. Unfortunately no matter what name we give this pilot organization (USAPA, ALPA, Teamsters, Etc.); we are still the same apathetic group that has allowed a hijacking of our union and the stagnation of our careers."

"Fact is USAPA and its leadership have lost touch with the needs of our pilots! So because of misleading promises and lies, because of deceitful practices, mismanagement of dues and because my membership has been ignored and disrespected, I have decided to become an objector. I ask that my dues be re-evaluated immediately to reflect my change in membership status. I await your confirmation and reply!"

USA320Pilot comments: Hawkhunter what's your opinion of Rich's comments I bolded so you could see them clearer?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Mind if I answer. USAPA is doing exactly what the VAST MAJORITY of pilots want them to do.

 

[captainJack]

The company has stated on several occasions and on record as the Nicolau list being the only seniority list they recognize.

Reference, please.

 

[EastUS]

Mind if I answer. USAPA is doing exactly what the VAST MAJORITY of pilots want them to do.

Indeed.

A point I find of some interest is the vehemence the ex-alpa crowd universally displays regarding the Great Alp Pension Give Away. All one can really do there is..well...wonder exactly WHY anyone wouldn't want to even ever look into that? What is it that they seem so concerned about there?

"Finally, your true controlling intensions became clear when you asked all pilots to support, with an assessment, an investigation of our pension termination. In this very emotional vote, you chose to present only one side of the story which influenced the outcome. I, along with other members of the previous R & I Committee offered to write a differing view....."

"Finally, your true controlling intensions became clear". Seriously folks...how tha' heck does having a vote on whether the membership should even reasonably examine the theft of their pensions amount to any "controlling intentions"? Who's truly got tehir "Control Freak" on here? :blink:

Next question for the alpa crowd = Just kindly explain to us all why looking into the pension theft is NOT a reasonable idea?

Lastly...at least we now know exactly how that would have gone under alpa = "Pension theft?...What pension theft?...Trust us..everything's just fine!...All is well!....You line pilot scum don't need no steenkeeng pensions anyway!..Those are only for the higher ups at Herndon!!....whistle, tap dance/etc" 🙄

 

[captainJack]

It is not germain to the question before the court.

germain does not mean what you think it does.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[captainJack]

What's your opinion of Rich's comments I bolded in post number 168 so you could see them clearer?

Cute.

1. My flight surgeon says I can see just fine, in fact much better than most. I don't need highlighting, taking things out of context, a feature of a controlling personality. That may work on the west, but those of us east pilots are pretty tired of the way you manipulate posts.

2. Where is your opinion?

Rich gets a couple of things wrong right off the bat.

1. Where did USAPA promise a "contract" in three months? I guess I missed those little gems. Could you point that out to me? I, as well as you, have the experience to say that would never happen in such a short time period. Why would Rich have believed that?

2. I believe there is a DOH list. It is in the company's hands. Most anyone can construct it, it truly is DIY.

3. 'snoop pretty much deconstructed the FPL canard. Perhaps you should talk with him.

As usual, Rich, runs with almost any rumor. You haven't figured that out yet? Why should I read the rest of Rich's screeching screed? I did, but give me something not so easily disproved.

Rich is a nice man. Impulsive, but a nice person. His citing "reasons", drawn from rumor, I've seen many times before. USAPA is not perfect, but it is a heck of a lot better than ALPA.

Look, why would I give up a 22+% pay raise and evenly divided $35 million just to get a contract now? That may include a 3% pay raise? Big whoop. Sounds like "let my daddy vote" all over again. Good thing we stalled that or we would be operating under LOA 93 by half.

I am of the opinion now that any west dude flying with me had better be good. Damn good. I've got the NYT on speed dial and anymore poop from this pathetic excuse for an airline will get a call. I hear US is pretty good at damage control. I would really like to test that.

 

[cleardirect]

The company has stated on several occasions and on record as the Nicolau list being the only seniority list they recognize.

Reference, please.

What would you like?

The letter signed by Doug Parker back in Dec 2007

The deposition of Al Heminway during the trial.

Or the direct questioning of the company lawyer right before the injunction was issued.

So that good enough for you?

 

[captainJack]

What would you like?

The letter signed by Doug Parker back in Dec 2007

The deposition of Al Heminway during the trial.

Or the direct questioning of the company lawyer right before the injunction was issued.

So that good enough for you?

Hiding stuff is not good.

Try posting URLs or a reference to those supposed proclamations.

Realize, when the CBA submits a "list", management must acknowledge that. The fact that is subject to a more modern CBA seems to escape you.

and, what injunction was issued?

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Well, it sure seems as if everybody is happy about the fast track on the appeal. Maybe the decision will be out in the March-April time frame.

It tentatively appears that the oral argument will occur in San Francisco during the second week of December, but that is very fluid. Each party will have a limited amount of time, probably between 10 and 20 minutes. Oral arguments in appellate courts can seem somewhat strange to people not accustomed to appellate procedure. The attorneys usually do not have an uninterrupted opportunity to give a speech. Oft times they are lucky to get out two or three paragraphs before the first judicial interruption occurs and the questions are usually very pointed and specific.

The Ninth Circuit does both audio and video tape proceedings. The audio tape is publicly available on the day after the oral argument has occurred. The video tape is for internal use of the court. The Ninth Circuit does allow media cameras in the courtroom upon media request. Up to a total of four cameras are allowed but they may not record any conversations between attorneys and their clients.

Any questions?

Yes, question: why would everybody be happy? I would think the West pilots may have something to worry about. Is that not true? USAPA won an expedited appeal from the 9th, yes? How is that cause for happiness for the West ?

Yes, question: you left out about the written arguments that will be submitted before the oral arguments. It would be in those written briefs that USAPA will lay out most of its appeal. Is that true?

Having been through oral arguments before an appeals court myself, this is where the judges ask THEIR questions. Is that true? And would not those questions be based upon the previous written briefs/arguments?

Another question: wasn't it you and a number of West pilots who thought USAPA's appeal would take at least 14 months to 2 years to be heard?

It seems to me that the West has already decided what the outcome will be. They can whistle past all the graveyards in PHX but that won't get them an answer any sooner than the court of appeals ruling. Isn't that true?

It also seems to me that the jury in the DFR case practiced jury nullification much like in the OJ trial although I don't know what the proper term is for this type of thing in a civil trial. Perhaps you know? As I recall, they deliberated only 3 hours, is that true? And that after such a complicated case for a jury of "plain citizens"? That is certainly true.


I know you have admitted bias towards the West but you do seem to answer questions out of some kind of knowledge you have obtained which is not always laced with your bias. That's all I am asking of you now.......your none-biased answers to the questions you have invited.

I haven't been reading this forum lately so if I have asked duplicate questions, please excuse me. Thank you.

 

[nic4us]

What would you like?

The letter signed by Doug Parker back in Dec 2007

The deposition of Al Heminway during the trial.

Or the direct questioning of the company lawyer right before the injunction was issued.

So that good enough for you?

Clear,

It is not good enough for them. Until they pull their collective heads out of the sand any true evidence offered is just West lies and propaganda in their minds, as they continue to fail to see the realities of the situation.

Nicolau is senile, worked from an incorrect certified list etc... never any thought of the reality that an appropriatley fair and reasonable outcome was reached, much less already accepted by the company.

Judge Wake was biased, it was a local hometown advantage, a "kangaroo court", jury was improper, etc.... No thought of the reality that USAPA's strategy is flawed, illegal and about to crash hard.

Now we also have posters proclaiming the reason USAPA was founded was to get all pilots past the stalemate associated with ALPA and the Nic. I watched every you-tube video USAPA put out pre-election. Read their web board pre-election. Even e-mailed them questioning their course of actions and recieved responses pre-election. The very first time I saw USAPA's "new agenda" was in opening arguements during the trial. Had this been their motive from the begining they may have won by a bigger margin as they may have gathered some support from senior West pilots near retirement just looking for a raise and a fence for the last two-three years of their career. They fabricated this BS for the trial, they lied to the judge and jury,(well those willing to show up anyway) and they are caught with their pants down.

When the assesment bills start showing up in their mailboxes, maybe then they will realize the reality of the situation.