US Pilots' Labor Thread 9/4 to 9/17--STAY ON TOPIC

[nycbusdriver]

Yes, I understand, had ALPA not made those conessions we would not be having this conversation as the east would have been unemployed without a pension or a company to grieve or sue.

Unlikely, but I guess we will never know. The cash cow that is/was (even in bankruptcy) USAirways was not about to be killed. Management just needed to convince the ALPA pants-wetters that it would actually pull the plug. ALPA blinked, and the rest is history. USAir(ways) has been written off as dead so many times since the mid-90s that's it's almost laughable. Yet, here we are, now providing life support to yet another dying airline west of the Rockies.

Had they been smart, they would have let PSA die on the vine back in the 80s, too.

 

[N924PS]

Ed Colodny and USAir saved PSA just the same as Doug Parker and America West saved USAirways.

 

[A320 Driver]

And not an ounce of PSA left except some very senior pilots who take up space on the widebodies. As opposed to the East operation which continues to be a franchise that brings more than it's share to the party.


Driver B)

 

[nic4us]

Unlikely, but I guess we will never know. The cash cow that is/was (even in bankruptcy) USAirways was not about to be killed. Management just needed to convince the ALPA pants-wetters that it would actually pull the plug. ALPA blinked, and the rest is history. USAir(ways) has been written off as dead so many times since the mid-90s that's it's almost laughable. Yet, here we are, now providing life support to yet another dying airline west of the Rockies.

Had they been smart, they would have let PSA die on the vine back in the 80s, too.

Management has little convincing to do when a bankrupcy judge is about to pull the plug for them.

The most significant difference between PSA and AWA would be USAir aquired PSA, while AWA aquired USAirways. The company on life support is indeed headquarted west of the rockies, and if you use the cactus call sign, you work for it.

Parker explained why we did not let USAirways die in numerous crewnews videos, but as you say we will never know. Perhaps Republic, Air Wisconsin or Mesa, could have stepped up to the plate and purchased AAA had America West declined.

 

[cleardirect]

Unlikely, but I guess we will never know. The cash cow that is/was (even in bankruptcy) USAirways was not about to be killed. Management just needed to convince the ALPA pants-wetters that it would actually pull the plug. ALPA blinked, and the rest is history. USAir(ways) has been written off as dead so many times since the mid-90s that's it's almost laughable. Yet, here we are, now providing life support to yet another dying airline west of the Rockies.

Had they been smart, they would have let PSA die on the vine back in the 80s, too.

A cash cow generates money not loses it. The east ability to rewrite history or see the world 180 degrees from reality is amazing.

 

[Hate2fly]

Management has little convincing to do when a bankrupcy judge is about to pull the plug for them.

The most significant difference between PSA and AWA would be USAir aquired PSA, while AWA aquired USAirways. The company on life support is indeed headquarted west of the rockies, and if you use the cactus call sign, you work for it.

Parker explained why we did not let USAirways die in numerous crewnews videos, but as you say we will never know. Perhaps Republic, Air Wisconsin or Mesa, could have stepped up to the plate and purchased AAA had America West declined.

Yo Nic4,

The west must have had money buried in the Grand Canyon!
Excerpted from Page 41 of America West Airlines Inc. 10-Q For 06/30/05_http://www.secinfo.com/dsVs6.z1k6.htm


Our obligations also impair our ability to obtain additional financing, if needed, and our flexibility in the conduct of our business. Our existing indebtedness is secured by substantially all of our assets, leaving us with limited collateral for additional financing. Moreover, the terms of the government guaranteed loan restrict our ability to incur additional indebtedness or issue equity unless we use the proceeds of those transactions to repay the loan, require prepayment if our employee compensation costs exceed a certain threshold, require us to maintain a minimum cash balance of $100 million, and restrict our ability to take certain other actions, including mergers and acquisitions, investments and asset sales.


41


Excerpted from Page 2 of America West Airlines Inc. 10-Q For 06/30/05



Item 1A. Condensed Consolidated Financial Statements — America West Holdings Corporation.

America West Holdings Corporation
Condensed Consolidated Balance Sheets
(in thousands except share data)
(unaudited)

June 30, December 31,
2005 2004

ASSETS
Current assets:
Cash and cash equivalents $ 116,061 $ 149,091



How much did the US Government own of the west operation..........John McCains pride and joy!

Hate

 

[john john]

HEEERE WE GO!

 

[flyer63]

and the west's ridiculous theory that they somehow saved the East's furloughed pilots and that is what brought about the recall.

shows how naive they are to the business.

this business goes in cycle's and so do the furloughs that go with it. The last down cycle started with 9 11 and the massive furloughs that 90 % of all airlines endured. The cycle was over in 2005 and recalls were well underway.

plus as talked about before the EAST had much more attrition.. Over 100 pilots a year retiring prior to 60 rule change. So it was not the west that saved the east pilots and we had plenty of jobs.

The East attrition is the key here. NIC put us behind the west new hires so they get to capture OUR attrition.

that is the major element I have wrong with the list.

and no I don't want your west CAPT spot just my EAST slot.

 

[nic4us]

How much did the US Government own of the west operation..........John McCains pride and joy!

I forget how much the government had and I do not care to look it up, but as I recall they made out handsomely on their investment in AWA.

One thing you point out that is somewhat important. McCain probably was important to our deal, as was Specter and others. Senators and Reps hate to see 30,000 of their constituents hit the street and their home town economies hurt by the loss of a major economic player in their states.

Perhaps giving up LGA to secure DCA is a wise strategic move on many fronts.

 

[Hate2fly]

Does not answere my question. Is there any MDA pilot senior to Coello? But I have to add, was Coello MDA?

Coello was furloughed at the time of the merger and got his job back because of the merger. The list was not wrong on this account, which was talked about in the award by your pilot nuetral. However, Nicolau reasoned that in fact it was indeed because of the merger that Coello was employed, which gave greater weight to the West arguement and he placed all furloughs junior to Odell. All furloughs being Coello and anyone junior to him whether they were employed at MDA or not.

Regardless, MDA will not spoil the Nic, the 9th will not spoil the Nic, the SCOTUS will not spoil the Nic.

Yo Nic4us,

Take a good look a the ALPA CB&L


Article II ALPA Constitution and By-Laws

13

ARTICLE II - MEMBERS

SECTION 1 - ELIGIBILITY FOR MEMBERSHIP

Any person of lawful age and of good moral character who is actively engaged as a pilot in

commercial air transportation, shall be eligible for membership in the Association in accordance with

the stipulations in this Article and elsewhere in the Constitution and By-Laws.

SECTION 2 - CLASSIFICATIONS

There shall be seven (7) classes of members: (a) Active, (B) Apprentice, © Executive, (d) Inactive, (e)

Retired, (f) Honorary and (g) Reactivated Member.

SECTION 3 - DESCRIPTION OF CLASSES

A. ACTIVE MEMBER

An Active member is a pilot employed by an airline for whom the Association is the bargaining

representative, who has met the qualifications of Section 1 of this Article and has been approved for

such status in accordance with Sections 4 and 5 of this Article. Except as provided in Article IX,

Section 7, an Active member in good standing shall be entitled to all the rights and privileges of the

Association including the right to vote and to assume and hold elective and appointive office. A

member shall remain active until:

(1) he is transferred to another classification;

(2) he resigns or is expelled under any provision of the By-Laws, provided that during the period of

appeal, if any, he shall remain in Active status;

(3) he is terminated from his airline, provided that he shall remain in Active status during all

procedures incident to the final decision under his employment agreement, relating to the

termination;

(4) he is furloughed from his airline;

(5) he is disabled and has received all available sick income on which dues are required to be paid

under Article IX, Section 3, provided that a member who (a) has received less than three years of

such sick leave income and exhausted his right to such income, (B) retains seniority rights, and ©

has not during his sick leave transferred to Inactive status under Section 3D(2) of this Article, will

remain Active for a continuous period of three years from the date that he begins receiving sick leave

income on which dues are required to be paid under Article IX, Section 3;

(6) he reaches retirement age.

I hope this helps you understand!
Hate

.

 

[luvthe9]

Stocks up big time this morning on rumor of the corporate tranaction and the seperation from the west. (keep your fingers crossed)

 

[Hate2fly]

Yo Nic4us,

Take a good look a the ALPA CB&L


Article II ALPA Constitution and By-Laws

13

ARTICLE II - MEMBERS

SECTION 1 - ELIGIBILITY FOR MEMBERSHIP

Any person of lawful age and of good moral character who is actively engaged as a pilot in

commercial air transportation, shall be eligible for membership in the Association in accordance with

the stipulations in this Article and elsewhere in the Constitution and By-Laws.

SECTION 2 - CLASSIFICATIONS

There shall be seven (7) classes of members: (a) Active, (B) Apprentice, © Executive, (d) Inactive, (e)

Retired, (f) Honorary and (g) Reactivated Member.

SECTION 3 - DESCRIPTION OF CLASSES

A. ACTIVE MEMBER

An Active member is a pilot employed by an airline for whom the Association is the bargaining

representative, who has met the qualifications of Section 1 of this Article and has been approved for

such status in accordance with Sections 4 and 5 of this Article. Except as provided in Article IX,

Section 7, an Active member in good standing shall be entitled to all the rights and privileges of the

Association including the right to vote and to assume and hold elective and appointive office. A

member shall remain active until:

(1) he is transferred to another classification;

(2) he resigns or is expelled under any provision of the By-Laws, provided that during the period of

appeal, if any, he shall remain in Active status;

(3) he is terminated from his airline, provided that he shall remain in Active status during all

procedures incident to the final decision under his employment agreement, relating to the

termination;

(4) he is furloughed from his airline;

(5) he is disabled and has received all available sick income on which dues are required to be paid

under Article IX, Section 3, provided that a member who (a) has received less than three years of

such sick leave income and exhausted his right to such income, (B) retains seniority rights, and ©

has not during his sick leave transferred to Inactive status under Section 3D(2) of this Article, will

remain Active for a continuous period of three years from the date that he begins receiving sick leave

income on which dues are required to be paid under Article IX, Section 3;

(6) he reaches retirement age.

I hope this helps you understand!

Hate

.

Let me ask you west guys a question.

How could the Council 041 Sec/Tres and one of the Neg. Comm. members for the mainline be active dues paying members if they were furloughed? Check out #4 above!

Hate

 

[nic4us]

The East attrition is the key here. NIC put us behind the west new hires so they get to capture OUR attrition.

that is the major element I have wrong with the list.

and no I don't want your west CAPT spot just my EAST slot.

I understand your position, but let me offer a few observations.

First, you continue to look at this as if the West was integrated into the east list, that is not the case.

Second, to claim after the fact attrition is off the table, disregards all the other factors that were considered when the decision was made.

Third, your east slot is no longer a seperate entity, neither is my West slot, just ask Sully or any of the east captains I have carried to PHX if they would prefer to be based in PHX, and yes they are all senior to my cpt slot. Yet, I have never heard a West pilot demand that all 1884 West positions be protected, that east pilots should not be allowed to exercise their seniority.

Finally, yes junior West pilots will benefit from the combined attrition, so what, so will junior east pilots. Your claim is actually that you deserve to be senior to the junior West pilot, effectively leapfrogging a pilot who held a status and expectation greater than yours.

 

[nic4us]

Let me ask you west guys a question.

How could the Council 041 Sec/Tres and one of the Neg. Comm. members for the mainline be active dues paying members if they were furloughed? Check out #4 above!

Hate

As I am not intimately familiar with the whole MDA thing let me just make this observation.

My question as to whether any MDA pilot is senior to Coello has not been answered so I will assume no MDA pilot was senior to him.

Active or furloughed does not matter in regards to the Nic if you were junior to Coello. Sue ALPA all you want. What reversable error is there and what damages can be claimed even if they misrepresented your status as furloughed when you consider yourself active because you worked for MDA.

For arguements sake, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say MDA pilots were active USAirways employees. So what, they were not mainline and even if you consider them mainline, they were not in group II our higher aircraft, as were all West pilots, and furloughed east pilots had a refusal right to any aircraft less than group II. MDAs pay, I would have to assume was less, and I would venture to guess that an MDA captain made less than a group II FO.

So the question becomes, as an active employee, does an MDA pilot have a greater expectation at the former USAirways than Coello, who is senior to them, and retained rights guaranteed by his seniority above them. I would say the answere is no, and therefore they had no greater expectation at the new combined company.

If the arguement you are making is that MDA was active, and therefore the junior MDA pilot should be slotted above Odell, with all the furloughed east pilots senior to that position also placed above Odell, you have a very presumptuous line of reasoning, and a misunderstanding of the tenants of how Nicolau constructed the list.

 

[N924PS]

And not an ounce of PSA left except some very senior pilots who take up space on the widebodies. As opposed to the East operation which continues to be a franchise that brings more than it's share to the party.


Driver B)

Those very senior pilots are also "young" and will be taking up space for at least 5 or 10 more years. And many not already taking up space are contemplating bidding over since that is the only way to get a raise.