US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I have been living in reality as have most east pilots. Understand that I still believe in DOH and I still believe that a 7 year FO has no business being anywhere near a 15 year FO. I jumped on the USAPA bandwagon so that I could have that chance to overturn the Nicolau. I went to Herndon, wore the pin and backer, and read everything USAPA sent my way. Admittedly, I didn't attend any meetings because I commute, but I do stay more informed than most. This "welcome to reality" stuff you west pilots keep putting out is insulting and does nothing but create even more animosity.

Yes, recent events and facts are hard to swallow and there is denial, but I've already admitted that this has turned into a futile and expensive endeavor. We need to refocus our efforts away from the west and toward the company because the direction we're going now no longer makes sense.

Underpants keeps talking about strikes, but I've asked a few friends who know more about this stuff than I do just what are chances are and have been told:

- ZERO. The NMB will take years, if ever, to release us. With the economy and our industry a wreck, the political environment will NEVER allow it.

- If we "wildcat", the west pilots will surely ignore that strike and the federal courts will crush us with fines.

- And I couldn't get a definitive answer as to the mechanics of striking outside of Section 6 since Wake will not allow us to negotiate a separate contract.

- And I was told that the chances of getting a high strike vote with west members (if the join en masse) will make the vote so close that the company will laugh at us.

And with Wake's remedy to contend with in just a few days with an appeal lasting almost TWO YEARS. Add Kirby's comment of no contract while an appeal is in progress and you have LOA 93 until 2011! I want to see that snapback as much as anyone, but I just don't see us getting it.

Its great USAPA got that LTD payout, but they were voted onto this property to get us out from under Nicolau and to get us a contract ASAP and they've done NEITHER!

I want Nicolau gone as badly as anyone, but is very apparent its not going away. And the next merger will see Nicolau passed to the other union.

Yes, reality has hit. Just stop rubbing it in!

Skier

Thats the best post I've read in a long time. I've been guilty of immature pot shots, but from what I just read here, I'll stop. I don't begrudge you or any other east pilot your feelings on the list or other things, but rather only the extent the radical element has gone to beat the west into submission.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Yes, recent events and facts are hard to swallow and there is denial, but I've already admitted that this has turned into a futile and expensive endeavor. We need to refocus our efforts away from the west and toward the company because the direction we're going now no longer makes sense.

You and 90% of the other East pilots voted what you thought was best. We don't need to debate what is now history, but the bottom line is that each of us acts according to what it best for us; what betters our personal situation so we can enjoy the important things in life as well as what harmonizes with our individual perceptions of what is fair. The east was flat out lied to be their own charlatans and that mistake has already cost captains over there 60K+ in pay alone. No need to rub "reality" in as I'm sure that money is sorely missed.

The question becomes how much more do we want to leave on the table. When Judge Wake issues the final order, this seniority issue will be over. There have been no winners in this other than Parker and gang. Now it is up to the collective pilot group as to where we go from here. Leonidas can see this litigation all the way through to the Supreme Court, if necessary. But if that is the course that is chosen, then I dare not add up the cumulative losses to all of us as nothing will change; the overwhelming liklihood is that the East will be working under LOA 93 and the West will be sitting stagnant, and the final result from the Supremes will be nothing different than the result from court room 504. Also, age 65 isn't going anywhere and there will be no real attrition on either side. Those are the facts. We can work together and maximize the chance to make up lost ground, or we can continue on this path of enriching Seham and Parker, to the detriment of all the pilots.

 

[freedom]

(so on and so forth )

The question becomes how much more do we want to leave on the table. When Judge Wake issues the final order, this seniority issue will be over. There have been no winners in this other than Parker and gang. Now it is up to the collective pilot group as to where we go from here. Leonidas can see this litigation all the way through to the Supreme Court, if necessary. But if that is the course that is chosen, then I dare not add up the cumulative losses to all of us as nothing will change; the overwhelming liklihood is that the East will be working under LOA 93 and the West will be sitting stagnant, and the final result from the Supremes will be nothing different than the result from court room 504. Also, age 65 isn't going anywhere and there will be no real attrition on either side. Those are the facts. We can work together and maximize the chance to make up lost ground, or we can continue on this path of enriching Seham and Parker, to the detriment of all the pilots.

My money is on stalemate ….

 

[BoeingBoy]

Your incorrect and misleading, BB. The East MEC was not the CBA.

Correct, but the East MEC was the legal representative of the CBA on the East property (just as the West MEC was on the West property) and it was the MEC that pulled the NC. The East MEC even passed a resolution to do exactly that.

The East MEC was telling pilots to rejoin and get current so they could vote against a NIc-infested TA before USAPA even had a name.

Sorry that my "short hand" confused you. Let me be more explicit - the organizing pilots of what was to become USAPA were cheering at the lapse of joint negotiations and urging East pilots to "get and stay current" with their dues so they could vote against any combined contract that contained Nic - I didn't say that the East MEC wasn't doing the same. They were both doing it for kinda the same reason - the MEC (most of them) wanted to stay in office and the group that would become USAPA wanted to get in office. As I said, the MEC was the official arm of ALPA that stopped negotiations, but the organizing group of what was to become USAPA was on the sidelines cheering with each negotiating delay. And why not - delay was the best friend of what would become USAPA, while the worst nightmare would be a ratified agreement containing Nic before a representational election could be held.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Technically correct, but misleading. The USAPA faithful were telling every East pilot who'd listen to get their dues paid up and get into good standing so they could vote against any joint contract that contained the Nic because USAPA "was presented the best chance the pilots had to avoid the Nic award." USAPA didn't have authority to negotiate a contract but they were on the sidelines cheering when the East MEC withdrew the NC from joint contract negotiations.

Jim

"USAPA didn't have authority to negotiate a contract"......"but they were on the sidelines cheering.."

So..let us all get this straight here. What the alpa crowd completely blew/failed at utterly/etc...was actually the fault of a then non-existent organization? :blink: Wow! I'm actually impressed! = That posting may very well be the most utterly pathetic, and completely feeble attempt to excuse alpa's incompetence that I've ever seen anywhere!

The next time any supposedly major league pitcher completely blows a world series game....he can apparently, and forevermore, just blame it all on people who "were on the sidelines cheering.."

 

[Freighterguynow]

This is the key. The Easties here say no CBA with the Nicolau list will ever be ratified. I say PROVE IT!

The guy who said ' lets take the Kirby proposal + 10% and incorporate the NIC as is' got only 30% of the vote and lost the Presidential election.

The proof is there you refuse to see it.

Never-the-less you will have your proof and in short order since you'll never get near an industry standard contract without multiple proving events first.

 

[aquagreen73s]

And the reason Seham came up was because of the amount of money he's made and is making with this strategy.

Ultimately this strategy, which is obviously approved and endorsed by the current USAPA leadership, will result in paying not only Seham, but more than likely most of the West attorneys fees as well. Victors in a DFR are entitled to attorneys fees once the case is complete. So in addition to being a costly failure, the Seham strategy will ultimately burden this pilot group with double the attorney fees.

At some point the insanity has to stop. Whats done is done, but we can change where we are headed. Join, pay dues, and recall the angry gang running USAPA.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The guy who said ' lets take the Kirby proposal + 10% and incorporate the NIC as is' got only 30% of the vote and lost the Presidential election.

Ironic, isn't it, that most of the West plus that 30% could ratify an agreement....all that's needed is for the West pilots to get in good standing.

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

I dont see a Wye Rvr II ("The Revenge of the Angry FOs"-that includes me) either. First theres no "controlling legal authority" (Al Gore's phrase, not mine) for USAPA to negotiate with. Another poster pointed, AOL could get sued by anyone not liking what was negotiated. A suit wont happen because AOL cant be sued for DFR since they dont represent any RLA-established union. Old legal-eagle hp can confirm Im sure (who better for legal advice?). For argument-sake only, lets say the 9th doesnt reverse. Throw in a couple of overwhelming defeats for NIC TAs, the judge, seeing how his ruling will keep the two sides from getting a single contract, and still maintaining jurisdiction, may try to get the two sides together. I doubt he could compel a revisit. It would probably require both sides to jointly petition him.

Good Afternoon Mega,

So, are you calling me old?

Seriously, I totally agree that AOL cannot be sued for a DFR because they are not a sole bargaining agent. I won't go out on a limb and postulate that AOL cannot be sued by anyone for anything because lawyers can get creative with such things, but my gut tells me that AOL cannot be successfully sued by anyone under present circumstances.

I also note, with some genuine regret, that I may be the best source some of you have for realistic legal insight absent hiring your own attorneys to walk you through this mess. Seham is looking out for Seham. It is unfortunate that he could not be paid based on the quality of his work and analysis rather than the quantity of it. As someone else posted (I think it was Aquagreen), Seham is trying to outspend the Addington class, which also means that he is spending USAPA money very liberally. I always hated it when, during my legal beagle career, the opponents tried to outspend us rather than out litigate us based upon facts and existing law. Call me old fashioned, but that tactic always made me work harder to keep that tactic from succeeding.

I note that you seem to be coming around to my view that it is currently extremely difficult, if not impossible, for USAPA to negotiate with anyone out west because a mechanism does not exist for that. Some folks on both sides of the issue need to start thinking creatively on how that can be done because there are things that need to be resolved and, as I have said before, West reps to the BPR are too conflicted to represent both the BPR and other West folks who aren't USAPA fans at the moment. That needs to change so that the pilots can unify and work on the next contract.

Have a happy 4th and the same to everyone else.

 

[hp_fa]

Yes, reality has hit. Just stop rubbing it in!

Hi Snowskier. I fully understand your comments and I, for one, don't intend to rub your face in what has happened.

Welcome to the board.

 

[aquagreen73s]

HP...your presence is quite helpful in this forum. Thanks.

 

[EastUS]

The east was flat out lied to be their own charlatans and that mistake has already cost captains over there 60K+ in pay alone. No need to rub "reality" in as I'm sure that money is sorely missed.

When Judge Wake issues the final order, this seniority issue will be over.

1) What utter and complete BS. If it's to be seen at all otherwise = prove it, and DO explain to us all just exactly how USAPA, which didn't even exist when talks were broken off, is supposedly responsible. Good luck.

2) Subject to the appeals process and the LOA resolutions..which of course, we must all now assume have a 100% certainty of failing in order to accept any portion of your model here. Speaking of "flat out lied to by their own charlatans".......

You guys must be truly worried about what may well actually happen as all this plays out. Why else continually offer up the same old nonsense?

West strategy = "Hey!..the east's morale may be vulnerable at present! Let's see if we can "move forward" our entire trainload of, and I quote you directly; "whoo whoo, chuga chuga, whoo whoo!" BS, while we think there's a window of opportunity in which to sell it!"

 

[EastUS]

Aquaman, you might be right, today's reality anyway. LOA93 does include LOA84 pay restoration in January 2010.


Off topic, this $30-50K raise, Im still waiting for anyone to offer any evidence anything like that is in the cards. Maybe 2 years ago, but ALPA nixed any chance of that.

Meanwhile, we'll sit back enjoy our first $35M installment of our $70M and await the LOA84 arbitration and appeal, if we last that long. Before that, though, I expect a Parker ultimatum on pay cuts to keep the company afloat. That will be the real gut-check.

1) It does. It's not an issue of "if" increased pay will be achieved, but one of how much.

2) Indeed...thanks again Alpa, for all the inestimable benefits achieved for this pilot group.

3) Agreed.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The proof is there you refuse to see it.

You must've attended the Lee Seham School of Law if that's your version of what constitutes proof. The only proof I'll believe is when an actual TA is put to vote. Until then talk is cheap.

 

[john john]

IThe entire purpose of self help is to shed unacceptable contract agreements and provide both sides leverage to negotiate new acceptable agreements. This is done through the RLA by canceling the prior agreements and freeing the parties from legal constraints.

underpants

AMEN