US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[hp_fa]

It stops when the Nic award is rendered moot. My point is there are lots of ways to avoid any damage from the Nic award.

Your source in not entirely correct. Our contract has a duration clause so it does "expire". The confusion is that at contract expiration a status quo period is entered automatically so all contract terms and conditions remain in full force and become amendable even though the contract has expired. At self help the company is free to change any or all parts of the contract and the union is free to strike to gain the leverage for its desired contract changes.

Hi CU,

I admit confusion here because I fail to see how Nicolau can become moot, absent the 9th Circuit overturning Wake on substance, which I consider unlikely, or by Wake dissolving the injunction, which is always possible depending on what facts are presented to him. Even if I were to buy your premise, which I do not, USAPA is still bound to follow any injunction in force against it by Judge Wake. As of now and pending review of the final form of the injunction, there is no basis in which to think that USAPA can just shed a federal injunction against it via any self-help by either the company or USAPA.

It would be of course insane to engage a traditional strike as either the company would fail or the strike would fail as sadly many pilots here would choose to scab. A nontraditional CHAOS strike would impose costs to the point of the company having to decide to sign a fair industry standard pilot contract or risk company failure to maintain an unfair pilot contract. In a CHAOS strike pilots do not risk losing their jobs to scab pilots. Frankly in my opinion if the company cannot afford to pay its pilots a fair wage it should not be in the airline business.

Reaching the self help stage is several years away unless we win the LOA 84 pay in which case the company may expedite the process.

Agreed.

In the meantime events could render Nic moot anyway. Bankruptcy is a possibility where the company would need a union deal. The Bankruptcy judge could cancel Nic if the survival of the company were at stake and Nic was a burden or obstacle to a union deal. We are intimately familiar with what bankruptcy does to contract obligations.

Nope, but for the 9th Circuit or Wake dissolving the injunction. A federal bankruptcy judge has no power whatsoever to over-rule an existing injunction placed by a federal judge. Bankruptcy judges have lesser powers than a district judge. Also, you seemingly keep overlooking that the injunction is against the union, not the company. The company, while not itself enjoined, cannot wink and nod at USAPA and say "let's just forget about that Nicolau seniority scheme." The company would be a defendant in court so fast that even one of their jet planes couldn't keep up.

We may be headed for a desperate shotgun merger to prolong our survival or purchase a failing carrier with investor money. This would require union cooperation and a new transition agreement. Also a new seniority integration would have to be negotiated or arbitrated. ALPA merger policy says the pre merger list order must remain while USAPA merger policy is DOH. No other airline would want our 35 year old pilots at the top of any integrated seniority list as they would be permanent career blockers to older pilots.

A future merger will not dissolve Nicolau. That would be the list from which the merger reps would have to work and failing that USAPA would once again be back explaining itself to Judge Wake. If it was an ALPA carrier then you already know what ALPA thinks about this anyway. Frankly, I really believe that until USAPA formally integrates itself pursuant to the provisions of Nicolau no airline company in its right mind will merge with US Airways.

The 9th circuit appeal has a good chance of reversing some or all of Wake's rulings.

Judge Wake ruled that USAPA may legally change the seniority list for a "legitimate union objective" which could very well materialize as events unfold.

I would put the odds of the Nic award surviving long enough to get into a joint contract at around 25% and the odds of the Nic windfall surviving at nil.

underpants

Again, I don't see a "good" chance of a reversal. Also, what are you quoting and from where to come to the premise that "Judge Wake ruled that USAPA may legally change the seniority list for a "legitimate union objective" which could very well materialize as events unfold."?

From my seat the odds on Nicolau surviving at about 85%.

Have a Happy 4th.

John

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

Please show us the law CU where something outside the CBA can be changed, altered or ignored when its not part of the CBA between the company and the union, when the arbitration is just between the union itself where both parties agreed to the process?

 

[hp_fa]

Seham trying to outspend? Its the West attorneys on wild goose chase to depose ALPA Muchos like Paul Rice and ALPA helpers like Wilson Poll's Phil Comstock. There the ones running up the bills, trying to turn a bizarre conspiracy theory into damages. They know counts 1&2 are gone, so they've dreamed up ALPA-Gate. Without their witch hunt, we could have wrapped up the "damages" trial in August as scheduled. But when Harper started down the conspiracy trail, he opened up the door for us to defend against his nonsense.

The damages portion of the trial is far less important then the remedy phase, specifically the injunction. The injunction is the big thing and even if the plaintiffs lose on damages the injunction remains. Also, it is highly likely that the plaintiffs class will get an award of all costs and fees in conjunction with obtaining the injunction. That would be everything that occurred up until the injunction is formally issued, minus any costs and fees for issues related solely to damages, such as depositions and discovery solely related to any alleged damages.

Coming around to YOUR point of view? Never took half a brain to see that. One of the problems USAPA had all along is there never was anyone to negotiate with, just 6 west pilots who declared themselves a class. Majority rules the BPR and there will be no need to unify for a single contract until we have answers on the appeal and LOA84. Your "ah shucks" approach wont change East opinions. We voted in USAPA and we're going to stand by them.

As far as I know, acknowledging that I could be wrong, I was the first person to mention the issue of just who represents the West in any discussions with USAPA. I did this quite awhile ago. If you want to try and show me wrong go ahead. However, in the meantime, the question remains as to who would represent the West in any discussions with USAPA? It can't be via the BPR. Also, while "majority rules the BPR" may sound good, others seem to disagree on how that is working and the remainder of your sentence sure makes it seem like USAPA is unwilling to do anything about anything for at least one year and likely much longer.

7/10 of us have to work this weekend. That happens every holiday. Im one of the 7.

Finally, I apologize for having wished you a Happy 4th. Is "fly safe" better?

 

[nic4us]

7/10 of us have to work this weekend. That happens every holiday. Im one of the 7.

"Soylent Green is made of PEOPLE!"

I am one of the 7/10 10/10 of the time.

Then just eat the noodles!

Happy 4th

 

[Elevation]

USAPA wins the Dues arbitration.

 

[Pi brat]

EDITED BY MODERATOR TO REMOVE UNAUTHORIZED MATERIAL

USAPA tried the kinder, gentler approach with Suzie. We even gave her 30 days to pay up after the arbitration. She's got 30 days. Thats not on the table for any other dues deadbeats. For the 19 PHL deadbeats (almost all still ALPA-philes), better pay up or look for another job. 19 out of 1250+ based in PHL. Can't wait for that groundswell to start the recalls.[/quote]

All the next letters should go to east pilots-they have no excuse for not joining.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Cha-Ching!

Wasn't there some discussion of not rubbing it in? Something about the maturity level of the west regarding this topic? You won. No need to gloat. Everybody knows...

 

[Poug Darker]

In an agency shop, you pay up, or get canned. There's a bunch of furloughed guys that would gladly pay dues.

 

[Megasnoop]

Wasn't there some discussion of not rubbing it in? Something about the maturity level of the west regarding this topic? You won. No need to gloat. Everybody knows...

Tiger, in the context of "cha-ching" alone, you got a point. the post was edited, no permission to reprint. But do we need to revisit the gloating after the DFR verdict (which is now on appeal)?

To expand on my point, the arbitration win will produce about $2M in revenue. That money will be put to use on all germane expenses. It benefits members and non-members alike.

 

[Metroyet]

The Arbitraitors ruling really has no meaning. West pilots are still not obligated to pay USAPA any dues prior to the disputed date. In fact, if you really look at it hard, USAPA actually LOST this non-binding arbitraition.

Binding Arbitraitions are merely a suggestion to those that agree with it...nothing more.

Remember?

 

[Megasnoop]

The Arbitraitors ruling really has no meaning. West pilots are still not obligated to pay USAPA any dues prior to the disputed date. In fact, if you really look at it hard, USAPA actually LOST this non-binding arbitraition.

Really? Maybe you better read the award. I didnt post that USAPA won, your Elevation did. I assume he read the decision. Spin a loss into a win? The arbitrator saw through the entire smokescreen, the west did the lack of domicile thing to themselves. Arbitrator Witt said the company erred in not forcing Suzie to begin payments back to April 18, not when she started paying on September 4. USAPAs appeal of the company's award is sustained. She is required to pay back to April 18 within 30 days or she's subject to termination under Section 29. That's a paraphrase of Arbitrator Witt's 19 page decision. That 30-day option wont be on the table for future deadbeats.

The damages portion of the trial is far less important then the remedy phase, specifically the injunction. The injunction is the big thing and even if the plaintiffs lose on damages the injunction remains. Also, it is highly likely that the plaintiffs class will get an award of all costs and fees in conjunction with obtaining the injunction. That would be everything that occurred up until the injunction is formally issued, minus any costs and fees for issues related solely to damages, such as depositions and discovery solely related to any alleged damages.

Not for the attorneys that want to get paid. there was no attorney money in the remedy draft. They opened the can of ALPA worms. Now we have no choice but to make them eat it. So far our only motions on damages are to dismiss, despite what Westies and the East ALPA-philes allege. It was Harper who wanted the delay. We just wanted dismiss. Now hes got until January. No telling what kind of contract AOL had with Harper. So far they haven’t disclosed. If the judge had wanted USAPA to pay AOLs attorneys fees, that would have been in the remedy injunction. This matter was discussed in court last fall. As I remember, Harper lost.

However, in the meantime, the question remains as to who would represent the West in any discussions with USAPA? It can't be via the BPR. Also, while "majority rules the BPR" may sound good, others seem to disagree on how that is working and the remainder of your sentence sure makes it seem like USAPA is unwilling to do anything about anything for at least one year and likely much longer.

The disgruntled ALPA-philes will always question. In the president run-off, Cleary went from 18% behind to a 60/40 win. The switch happened when his opponent hinted at a Kirby quicky plus 10% along with the NIC. That says it all on our commitment to see this through.

Finally, I apologize for having wished you a Happy 4th. Is "fly safe" better?

Thanks. When flying Int’l, sometimes working a good holiday layover spot is its own reward. You go where you bid and don’t get bumped or turned down on the jump seat. The shame about this 4th is that some of our fellow pilots are not working anywhere right now.

I'm glad you brought that up. I was discussing the LM reports and this very topic came up. I was told that Seham has adopted a "spend them into the ground" strategy and has been inundating the courts with various motions and such to which the west lawyers must respond. Someone here posted something about October but Judge Wake moved it to January. But the reason for the delay was so that they could respond properly to all the filings Seham has been making And the reason Seham came up was because of the amount of money he's made and is making with this strategy.

You were told wrong, Snowman. We filed motions to dismiss the damages trial. That’s all. No counts 1 or 2, so no damages. You need to get your facts straight on LM2s, instead of listening to super-accountant DH. A Germane/Non-Germane lawsuit will go the way of the Suzie grievance. He may know accounting, but he doesn’t know LM2 filings. But you got your own in-house lawyer, DB, so go for it.

 

[hp_fa]

Not for the attorneys that want to get paid. there was no attorney money in the remedy draft. They opened the can of ALPA worms. Now we have no choice but to make them eat it. So far our only motions on damages are to dismiss, despite what Westies and the East ALPA-philes allege. It was Harper who wanted the delay. We just wanted dismiss. Now hes got until January. No telling what kind of contract AOL had with Harper. So far they haven’t disclosed. If the judge had wanted USAPA to pay AOLs attorneys fees, that would have been in the remedy injunction. This matter was discussed in court last fall. As I remember, Harper lost.

You forget this is a class action. The pertinent part of the rule follows. Guess what is likely to happen as soon as the injunction is issued?

Rule 23. Class Actions

In a certified class action, the court may award reasonable attorney's fees and nontaxable costs that are authorized by law or by the parties' agreement. The following procedures apply:

(1) A claim for an award must be made by motion under Rule 54(d)(2), subject to the provisions of this subdivision (h), at a time the court sets. Notice of the motion must be served on all parties and, for motions by class counsel, directed to class members in a reasonable manner.

(2) A class member, or a party from whom payment is sought, may object to the motion.

(3) The court may hold a hearing and must find the facts and state its legal conclusions under Rule 52(a).

(4) The court may refer issues related to the amount of the award to a special master or a magistrate judge, as provided in Rule 54(d)(2)(D).

 

[Megasnoop]

You forget this is a class action. The pertinent part of the rule follows. Guess what is likely to happen as soon as the injunction is issued?

Rule 23. Class Actions

In a certified class action, the court may award reasonable attorney's fees and nontaxable costs that are authorized by law or by the parties' agreement. The following procedures apply:

You got to win to collect, hp. And no guarantee of a win anywhere in sight. Meanwhile Harper's out to discover ALPA-Gate. "Fees authorized by law." Lawyer talk for 20 cents on the dollar. But he's still got to win this collect a nickle.

All we need is a reversal on ripeness (like in Breeger) and all that AOL donations goes down a rat hole.

 

[hp_fa]

You got to win to collect, hp. And no guarantee of a win anywhere in sight. Meanwhile Harper's out to discover ALPA-Gate. "Fees authorized by law." Lawyer talk for 20 cents on the dollar. But he's still got to win this collect a nickle.

All we need is a reversal on ripeness (like in Breeger) and all that AOL donations goes down a rat hole.

Mega, they won. Liability was found. The injunction will issue. The injunction is the win. The rest was gravy, not the main course.

 

[Metroyet]

Really? Maybe you better read the award. I didnt post that USAPA won, your Elevation did. I assume he read the decision. Spin a loss into a win? The arbitrator saw through the entire smokescreen

Hmm. I'm surprised. I thought you understood sarcasm and ascerbic irony. Guess not.

Somewhere in your post is a good look at hypocrisy. USAPA cheerleader style.

Shocking how easily you can see the other side when suits your needs.