US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[Piedmont1984]

A noble sentiment, but I can see a few potential problems.



3 - What could the West hope to gain from negotiating away what they've gotten through arbitration and affirmed through court ruling? A court ruling which they've spent a significant amount of money to secure. A promise from the East to abide by this agreement? They've been there and done that already and what did it get them besides a big legal bill and furloughs? No one could make the East vote for a contract containing the modified seniority agreement any more than the East could be forced to vote for a contract containing the Nic.

It seems to me that the only way out of this is for USAPA to actually negotiate a combined contract and put it out for a vote. If it passes, the worst will be over - I remain firmly convinced that there are enough pilots on the East side that would vote for a descent contract to ratify it and the hotheads would just have to live with it or leave.

Jim

I happen to be a captain. I am not in the least bit inclined to vote for a mediocre or even marginally better contract. I believe many in my seat feel the same way. Now take the east guy in the right seat who sees the Nic as a career ender. He is looking at two big negatives, the list and a mediocre contract. Now take the average west pilot, will he vote for a mediocre contract just to see the Nic go into effect? I don't know, but my intuition tells me a contract would not pass a vote. At least not one which LCC is willing to offer.

The course we are on will only lead to a pyrrhic victory for one side or the other. Because at the end of the day - we all end up on the same side.

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (oscarjazz @ Jul 1 2009, 08:31 PM)
Talk about dancing on the deck of the Titanic. Gentlemen, you need to pay attention to the financial health of your airline. You are bouncing on the cash covenant of the exit financing package. If LCC can't raise cash soon, they will have to start selling stuff. That will not be good for LCC pilots.

USAirways may indeed breach its loan covenants and go TU.

The pilot groups' ability to affect this outcome is pretty close to zero. - Unless we want to do a British Airways and offer to work a month for free. If it comes down to that I would hope that the pilot group would say thanks but no thanks. This profession has taken enough hits and any carrier that can't afford to pay its employees needs to go out of business.

As has been discussed many times before, this battle is doing nothing but positive things for the company's bottom line. Management has a built-in, permanent whipsaw that almost operates itself. Sure, this comes with a few expenses related to irregular operations but overall it is the labor deal of the century.

I believe that the east pilots' belief; that a contract is not coming to a theater near you any time soon, is correct. The company is not desperate to pay us more. The Delta/Northwest merger has already shown what happens when you merge two pilot groups who do not attempt to kill each other; you have to throw a crap load of money at them. A single contract is probably not necessary, or even desirable, as a pretext to another merger.

Everybody keeps saying how this merger proves what a horrible CEO Doug Parker is. The people who financed this merger cashed out and cashed out big. Parker was able to raise cash in November/December and again last month. UAL appears ready to hit pawn shops in Chicago and they look like a better airline on paper than USAir.

We might not necessarily like Parker but don't think for a moment that the investment community shares our disdain. After all, these are the people who believe the sole reason GM, Chrysler and Boeing are in torpedo water is because of organized labor.

When I sober up, I'll deny writing this or blame it on beer. Your both close to right. We're arguing about who has first access to the lifeboats, DOH or NIC. But maybe our arguing is what keeps this place afloat. It gives Parker confidence he wont have to pay for a new contract. His biggest worry is LOA84, costing almost as much as a new contract. He might be able to delay that another 12 months. Maybe better times next summer, who knows. The facts/contract language are on our side for LOA84. Unusual problem with arbitration is not that you may win or lose. Its an arbitrator's ability to split the baby, something that normally doesnt happen in a trial. Arbs have ruled in the past that the cost of a win could BK a company, so they rule for the company, despite facts. Its a rarity, but as we all know, arbitration happens.

This lack of a single contract may be the company deal of the century, but with revenues tanking, the industry near coollapse, the economy near collapse, theres probably never been a worse time to negotiate a single contract. All this $30-$50K loss per year is nonsense. Nothing even close is on the table. Maybe it was 2 years ago, but that was better times. If you want to put blame on not gettting a contract then, put blame where it belongs, with ALPA and the East MEC. USAPA had nothing to do with it.

Parkers financial resiliance is amazing. Writing off $1/2B in oil futures, losing no telling how much in "cash or cash equivalents," plus operational mistakes that roll our eyes. And he still can go to the well for more money. Like in the jungle, he doesnt have to outrun the lion, only outrun 1 or 2 of our competitors. Over the past 2 years I've had a lot of posts wondering if this place will survive. No telling, seems less likely every day. The real gut check will be when Parker runs the ultimate bluff, massive pay cuts or CH7. Don't think he wont. Hes already got "his" stashed away.

Meanwhile, all this East V West is crap. The appeal has to play out in the courts. The MIGS demand it. One naive poster thought, we'll just get everyone to join and we'll recall. That wont happen. The west doesn't have enough votes to join with the small/vocal East minority former ALPA/FPLers. Although its a lot easier to recall under USAPA than ALPA, it wont happen.

More stupid are the constant arguments about who saved who, career expectations, etc. The bottom line on the 9th Circuit court appeal is did the judge error? If he did, there could be a new trial, maybe after the case is ripe, maybe with all the evidence USAPA wanted to bring in. Or the 9th could throw the entire verdict out as a matter of law, not appealable, not re-triable. Or the 9th could sustain the verdict without modification. We're not lawyers, we're pilots. Why continue to fight a legal battle none of us are competent to fight? Its going to play out because thats what the majority wants to happen.

One last beer-talk, as posted, so the plaintiffs want a delay in damages trial to October and now its set for January 2010, tell me, WHO is doing the delaying? Hard to pin that one on USAPA.

 

[hp_fa]

I have an idea. What about a compromise? (For the umpteenth time.) In order to avoid an Alamo scenario - which it appears we are rapidly approaching - why doesn't AOL or AWAPPA or whoever propose some sort of middle ground? Pick one of your own choosing. How about USAPA's C&R's reversed, or attrition east goes to the east for a period of years?

Something, anything that may unblock this logjam. Because in case anyone has not noticed, the more the west presses for an "unconditional surrender", the more desparate the resistance will be from the east.

I personally don't see a favorable ending to this if we continue on our present course. Time to deviate.

Hi Piedmont.

My first response is to incorporate what Jim said, but I would have used his item #3 first and I have previously posted to that effect. Why should West now negotiate away their "win" in light of the time for negotiating has long since left?

The West was negotiating with through the merger committee, then through mediation and then took their shot at the Nicolau arbitration. They didn't get all that they sought and lost a shot at the top 517 slots, but did gain some form of slotting and that flying pilots would be slotted in above furloughed pilots. So while they did accomplish their main goal, they didn't accomplish all their goals.

The AAA MEC wrongly promised their pilots DOH/LOS and, in my opinion, failed to lead their members by being leaders instead of politicians. They seemed to be more concerned with doing what they thought would get them re-elected instead of doing the job they should have been doing. Ask yourself how many times the AAA MEC leadership actually let its members know what was going on and prepared them in any way that they could lose their DOH/LOS argument under the circumstances in which the Nicolau arbitration occurred? The average line pilot probably flies his/her trips and leaves the union stuff to the union and simply reads the communications from the president and then goes upon their merry way. Those pilots were then blindsided when Nicolau's decision was made public because their leaders never prepared them for what could occur and that the leaders never wavered at all in the DOH/LOS or nothing stance.

So with everything the West went through, taking their chances along the way and having at least presented some alternatives along the way, how can anyone expect them to vary from the full and final Award?

I agree with Jim's solution and that is to go and negotiate a contract with the company utilizing Nic. USAPA can still leave DOH as their criteria for future mergers because that policy will have been in effect prior to the next merger, so it can save face by keeping DOH/LOS. However, DOH/LOS cannot be applicable to the AWA merger because it occurred before USAPA was voted in and before the DOH/LOS provisions became applicable. Think of it as not being to change the rules after the game has been played.

One last thought. USAPA's leaders, including the BPR, needs to start thinking clearly and with foresight rather than hindsight. Specifically I am thinking about the incident at the CLT union meeting 4-6 weeks ago when an opportunity was lost to start trying to act as one big happy union. According to what I have read the CLT domicile rep, upon seeing the LAS domicile rep there, went up to him and asked "[w]hat are you doing here"? Why couldn't he have instead said "how nice it is to have you here and let me introduce you to our members". (Now I will admit that it is possible that the LAS rep was there to ask some pointed questions to the meetings guest, Lee Seham, but then again Seham's tour of domiciles was pointedly leaving out domiciles in the West.) I hope you understand what I am referring to as a mindset that seems to be very anti-West and no one is taking any care to actually close the gap because they don't want to be percieved as weak or anything else that may be said in testosterone-filled crew rooms, etc.

I'm sorry Piedmont, but I think East needs to go out of their way to welcome West, agree to Nic, and simply move forward and hope that many attitudes change and that West folks bring their ideas and efforts to the common cause in getting the pilots their best possible contract and working conditions. That should be the common goal.

 

[Megasnoop]

brain trust at USAPA HQ, as cheered on by their charlatan lawyer, tossed the A bomb into the pilot group.The West is an innocent bystander to this fiasco. The Angry FO Club thought .

Metro, any wonder why we'll never be able to get this behind us? Not with your kind of venom. Its nasty, to what purpose? Does it make you feel good? You tone down the rhetoric and maybe, just maybe, we can talk about the issues that we have in common, like how this place is going to survive.

injunction and a zero percent chance of overturning it

And you speak from what authority? That of a line pilot? This has to play out in the 9th Circuit. I dont know how it will turn out, neither do you. I think we'll win, you don't. Your not changing anyones mind with your constant attacks. All your doing is fanning more flamebait.

 

[Freighterguynow]

I happen to be a captain. I am not in the least bit inclined to vote for a mediocre or even marginally better contract. I believe many in my seat feel the same way.

Yes they do. Had a 767 Captain on the jump seat the other day. He's trying to bid left seat on the A-330 but, under the Nic award, will have 500 to 600 ( his words ) AWA pilots senior to him and never make it.

Trying to marginalize USAPA as the 'angry F/O club' simply deludes those lurkers out there.

The Nic is a show stopper and there WILL be Wye River II to get a joint CBA.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The Nic is a show stopper and there WILL be Wye River II to get a joint CBA.

No. There will be LOA 93 until there is a joint contract. That is the reality of today.

 

[nic4us]

Yes they do. Had a 767 Captain on the jump seat the other day. He's trying to bid left seat on the A-330 but, under the Nic award, will have 500 to 600 ( his words ) AWA pilots senior to him and never make it.

Trying to marginalize USAPA as the 'angry F/O club' simply deludes those lurkers out there.

The Nic is a show stopper and there WILL be Wye River II to get a joint CBA.

If he has 500-600 West in front of him, he also has 1000-1400 east in front of him, these numbers do not add up, or he is getting his hopes up for something he could not hold anyway.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If he has 500-600 West in front of him, he also has 1000-1400 east in front of him, these numbers do not add up, or he is getting his hopes up for something he could not hold anyway.

More than likely he's making up an excuse to tell the east F/O what the East F/O wants to hear.

Stick a payraise of 40K in front of him with much improved work rules and private voting via Ballotpoint and watch what happens.

 

[Beancounter]

I've read several posts that mention modifications to the Nic. I'm not sure how that could be done. Fences aren't an option because the Nic mentions removing them if age 65 passes. The way I see it if we want a new contract the Nic is going to be implemented. East pilots don't want the Nic and management no longer has an incentive to negotiate a decent contract. It is begining to seem like the only way to get a better job is to wait for an upswing in the economy(2-4 yrs) and look at another airline. I hate to be negative, but it appears the only people that are going to make any money at US Airways is the top management and the union's lawyers.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If you want to put blame on not gettting a contract then, put blame where it belongs, with ALPA and the East MEC. USAPA had nothing to do with it.

Technically correct, but misleading. The USAPA faithful were telling every East pilot who'd listen to get their dues paid up and get into good standing so they could vote against any joint contract that contained the Nic because USAPA "was presented the best chance the pilots had to avoid the Nic award." USAPA didn't have authority to negotiate a contract but they were on the sidelines cheering when the East MEC withdrew the NC from joint contract negotiations.

Jim

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (Freighterguynow @ Jul 2 2009, 10:18 AM)
The Nic is a show stopper and there WILL be Wye River II to get a joint CBA.

No. There will be LOA 93 until there is a joint contract. That is the reality of today.

Aquaman, you might be right, today's reality anyway. LOA93 does include LOA84 pay restoration in January 2010. Whod ever think we'd last that long? Obviously not U management when negotiated and signed 93.

I dont see a Wye Rvr II ("The Revenge of the Angry FOs"-that includes me) either. First theres no "controlling legal authority" (Al Gore's phrase, not mine) for USAPA to negotiate with. Another poster pointed, AOL could get sued by anyone not liking what was negotiated. A suit wont happen because AOL cant be sued for DFR since they dont represent any RLA-established union. Old legal-eagle hp can confirm Im sure (who better for legal advice?). For argument-sake only, lets say the 9th doesnt reverse. Throw in a couple of overwhelming defeats for NIC TAs, the judge, seeing how his ruling will keep the two sides from getting a single contract, and still maintaining jurisdiction, may try to get the two sides together. I doubt he could compel a revisit. It would probably require both sides to jointly petition him.

Off topic, this $30-50K raise, Im still waiting for anyone to offer any evidence anything like that is in the cards. Maybe 2 years ago, but ALPA nixed any chance of that. You cant get to costs in negotiations until you agree on costing models. We're still arguing the size and shape of the table. Meanwhile, we'll sit back enjoy our first $35M installment of our $70M and await the LOA84 arbitration and appeal, if we last that long. Before that, though, I expect a Parker ultimatum on pay cuts to keep the company afloat. That will be the real gut-check.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Stick a payraise of 40K in front of him with much improved work rules and private voting via Ballotpoint and watch what happens.

This is the key. The Easties here say no CBA with the Nicolau list will ever be ratified. I say PROVE IT!

 

[Snowskier]

Snowskier

No flaming here. Let me be the first to welcome you to reality. The whole usapa experiment has been and will continue to be a complete failure. Yet, it seems that many on this board have no problem with being lied to by their union and promised things that will NEVER HAPPEN.

The reallity is, this group needs more people like you. Ones that are willing to admit to themselves that they felt they had to try but when faced with reality, their common sense kicks in.

The only solution is for usapa to abandon their present course, become a real Union that represents ALL US Airways Pilots, fire that scumbag lawyer sheeham and work towards a single contract that provides us with more money and a better lifestyle.

The Nic' will never go away and the sooner more folks like you realize that the sooner we can move on and put this mess behind us.

I have been living in reality as have most east pilots. Understand that I still believe in DOH and I still believe that a 7 year FO has no business being anywhere near a 15 year FO. I jumped on the USAPA bandwagon so that I could have that chance to overturn the Nicolau. I went to Herndon, wore the pin and backer, and read everything USAPA sent my way. Admittedly, I didn't attend any meetings because I commute, but I do stay more informed than most. This "welcome to reality" stuff you west pilots keep putting out is insulting and does nothing but create even more animosity.

Yes, recent events and facts are hard to swallow and there is denial, but I've already admitted that this has turned into a futile and expensive endeavor. We need to refocus our efforts away from the west and toward the company because the direction we're going now no longer makes sense.

Underpants keeps talking about strikes, but I've asked a few friends who know more about this stuff than I do just what are chances are and have been told:

- ZERO. The NMB will take years, if ever, to release us. With the economy and our industry a wreck, the political environment will NEVER allow it.

- If we "wildcat", the west pilots will surely ignore that strike and the federal courts will crush us with fines.

- And I couldn't get a definitive answer as to the mechanics of striking outside of Section 6 since Wake will not allow us to negotiate a separate contract.

- And I was told that the chances of getting a high strike vote with west members (if the join en masse) will make the vote so close that the company will laugh at us.

And with Wake's remedy to contend with in just a few days with an appeal lasting almost TWO YEARS. Add Kirby's comment of no contract while an appeal is in progress and you have LOA 93 until 2011! I want to see that snapback as much as anyone, but I just don't see us getting it.

Its great USAPA got that LTD payout, but they were voted onto this property to get us out from under Nicolau and to get us a contract ASAP and they've done NEITHER!

I want Nicolau gone as badly as anyone, but is very apparent its not going away. And the next merger will see Nicolau passed to the other union.

Yes, reality has hit. Just stop rubbing it in!

Skier

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (Megasnoop @ Jul 2 2009, 12:46 PM)
If you want to put blame on not gettting a contract then, put blame where it belongs, with ALPA and the East MEC. USAPA had nothing to do with it.

Technically correct, but misleading. The USAPA faithful were telling every East pilot who'd listen to get their dues paid up and get into good standing so they could vote against any joint contract that contained the Nic because USAPA "was presented the best chance the pilots had to avoid the Nic award." USAPA didn't have authority to negotiate a contract but they were on the sidelines cheering when the East MEC withdrew the NC from joint contract negotiations.

Jim

Your incorrect and misleading, BB. The East MEC was not the CBA. The East MEC was telling pilots to rejoin and get current so they could vote against a NIc-infested TA before USAPA even had a name. As a non-member, I remember getting that email. ALPA as the CBA pulled out of negotiations before USAPA got its first card. Not doubt USAPA "was presented the best chance the pilots had to avoid the Nic award." And for those of you who are keeping track of campaign promises, so far USAPAs kept that one.

 

[Snowskier]

QUOTE (oscarjazz @ Jul 1 2009, 08:31 PM)
One last beer-talk, as posted, so the plaintiffs want a delay in damages trial to October and now its set for January 2010, tell me, WHO is doing the delaying? Hard to pin that one on USAPA.

I'm glad you brought that up. I was discussing the LM reports and this very topic came up. I was told that Seham has adopted a "spend them into the ground" strategy and has been inundating the courts with various motions and such to which the west lawyers must respond.

Someone here posted something about October but Judge Wake moved it to January. But the reason for the delay was so that they could respond properly to all the filings Seham has been making.

And the reason Seham came up was because of the amount of money he's made and is making with this strategy.