US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[Snowskier]

AMEN

I contacted a USAPA committee member who I rely on to help me with this and his explanation is not consistent with what underpants is putting out.

You do not "shed" an agreement as, per the RLA, our CBA does not expire. Self-help affords us the leverage to move our position through whatever means we choose, but during these actions nothing goes away.

In underpant's example, I was told, if we were released then that would mean the company could impose whatever work rules on us that they wanted so long as they didn't violate FAR's and that is hardly the case.

Its irresponsible logic such as this that has gotten us to where we are.

I remember being told that changing unions would negate the Nicolau and now I'm being told by underpants that self-help will do it instead.

When does it stop?

 

[Snowskier]

Hi Snowskier. I fully understand your comments and I, for one, don't intend to rub your face in what has happened.

Welcome to the board.

I appreciate that. Its tough enough having to deal with the fact that you've been led around by your nose only to find you've gone backwards.

There's also a bit of resentment in seeing USAPA turn into what it has replaced. I abhorred ALPA and the elitist attitude some if the well paid "volunteers" had and I'm seeing that again.

I don't know if I'm allowed to name names so I won't, but I see that TP has her little FPL kingdom up and running again. And unless we've started staying at the nicer hotels, USAPA's promise of only using crew hotels for union business quickly fell by the wayside.

And now MC has made sure that he's getting paid well for doing his union work much to the chagrin of DC who is probably the only guy I trust over there now to watch over us.

Anyway, the east pilots know who I'm talking about and I'm sure some of them have the same resentment as I do. ALPA is back, only under a different name and with a bit less punch.

No one to blame but myself.

 

[hp_fa]

Anyway, the east pilots know who I'm talking about and I'm sure some of them have the same resentment as I do. ALPA is back, only under a different name and with a bit less punch.

The folks whose initials you used have all had there names mentioned in here. The rule, as I understand it, is that you can name folks who are in public roles within the union. You cannot name someone who is in a non-public role, nor can you identify or "out" a poster here who hasn't done so for themselves.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I contacted a USAPA committee member who I rely on to help me with this and his explanation is not consistent with what underpants is putting out.

I think there was a misunderstanding . The process for section 6 negotiations, which is what Capt Underpants was using, is:

1 - negotiations between the company and union

2 - mediator can be requested by either side to assist in negotiations

3 - mediator declares an impasse - the parties are at a stalemate and successfully concluding negotiations is not possible

4 - mediator offers services of an arbitrator, which one or both sides can refuse (and usually do)

5 - the company and union are released to a 30-day cooling off period. Through this step everything must remain status quo except those changes specified in the existing contract - annual pay raises specified by the existing contract would take place, for example.

6 - at the end of the cooling off period both the company and union are free to engage in self-help (note that neither side has to but both can). The union is free to call a strike or other action (like Chaos) and the company is free to impose a contract.

Note that all of that is for section 6 negotiations. If the judges draft remedy stands, Capt UP missed that there will be no section 6 negotiations but rather negotiations for a combined contract. It's unexplored territory in many respects since this type of negotiation almost never ends up in a stalemate (I can't think of one that did). So I'm not sure anyone really knows what actions can or can not be taken beyond negotiation and mediation. One thing is probably a safe bet, however. If the union can engage in self-help so can the company. I doubt that a strategy based on the union being allowed to strike or whatever while holding the company to status quo has any chance of working.

Jim

 

[Tiger 1050]

I appreciate that. Its tough enough having to deal with the fact that you've been led around by your nose only to find you've gone backwards.

There's also a bit of resentment in seeing USAPA turn into what it has replaced. I abhorred ALPA and the elitist attitude some if the well paid "volunteers" had and I'm seeing that again.

I don't know if I'm allowed to name names so I won't, but I see the TP has her little FPL kingdom up and running again. And unless we've started staying at the nicer hotels, USAPA's promise of only using crew hotels for union business quickly fell by the wayside.

And now MC has made sure that he's getting paid well for doing his union work much to the chagrin of DC who is probably the only guy I trust over there now to watch over us.

Anyway, the east pilots know who I'm talking about and I'm sure some of them have the same resentment as I do. ALPA is back, only under a different name and with a bit less punch.

No one to blame but myself.

Snow,
It's not roses on either side. I, myself, have and do wish things worked out differently. My personal situation would, in all honesty, be better if DOH were in place. At least as far as I can tell.... Crunching the simple numbers show what? 275-300 total furloughs company wide? With DOH I'd still be working. However things did not go as I had personally hoped. Do I still support the Nic? 100%. For the simple fact that both sides independently agreed to that process that brought us the award. Neither side knew how it would go down. We both equally risked an undesirable outcome. This is of course not to say we in the west are completely happy with the award though. Many fine people lost no less than 517 positions. My point is that there are folks on both sides of this disagreement that maybe feel a little ignorant regarding what we were sold as opposed to what we got...

As for me I am convinced now that I will not be back. Not for a number of years at least. I am hoping for an opportunity to arise with another carrier but I have seriously entertained a whole new career. I am a little trigger shy with the latter though.

For all else: Sorry for the bitter attitude prior to my visit to the land of corn. With Judge Wake's order lacking any sort of relief for those of us furloughed out of Nic order and the realization that the block hour grievance will produce nil for the furloughs as well frustrated me to no end. From what I have heard the company has been with in limits on block hours since February. Getting furloughed in May shouldn't have happened if winning the grievance would produce positive results. Anyway I am gonna continue in lurker mode as much as I can stand it....

Good evening.

 

[Waketurbulence]

I want Nicolau gone as badly as anyone, but is very apparent its not going away. And the next merger will see Nicolau passed to the other union.

Yes, reality has hit. Just stop rubbing it in!

Skier

Rubbing it in was not my intention and if it came across that way I apologize. I guess we all have been living in our own reality but they are very different depending on which side you are on.

The reality is though, as you stated, the Nic' is not going anywhere but in section 22 of a joint contract. The reality is, without a joint contract, we all stay at the bottom of industry wages. The reality is, unless usapa changes course, countless more thousands of dollars will make their way from our pockets into Sehams/Parkers pockets and in the end, we will be right back where we started.

The reality is, I beleive many are beginning to see those as the realities we all face and like you may be coming to terms with them.

From where I sit, I can only hope that more realize the reality of the situation and demand that usapa start to work for ALL US Airways Pilots and get to a joint contract like they promised in their campaign.

 

[EastUS]

I contacted a USAPA committee member who I rely on to help me with this and his explanation ..

Really?...Who? If you would so kind as to pm me, if not actually post this supposed contact by at least title, I'd appreciate it. I ask that honestly, as I'd like to hear the same thing from him for the betterment of my own education. "I heard it from someone" always leaves me just a little bit uncertain.....

 

[Noah-Nothing]

Good argument but it has a fatal flaw. The DFR was a breach of contract not a breach of duty. A breach of ALPA's contract (TA) with the company to use the infamous results of ALPA merger policy. USAPA actions were only a breach of DFR because of ALPA's prior contractual commitment. Without ALPA USPA's actions would be perfectly legal. Look at the AFA's imposition of DOH on the F/A's.

Wake is on thin ice anyway with the appeal because it is quite unusual to have a DFR for breach of contract as Federal courts do not have jurisdiction over contract disputes. Lots of legal types are scratching their heads over that one. Contract interpretation is strictly a system board jurisdiction. We will have wait for the 9th circuit to rule on that one.

underpants

Thats funny, the "D" in DFR stands for duty.

NN

 

[Edward]

Good morning to everyone & the moderating team wishes everyone a happy & safe holiday weekend.

Now I'm going to make a proposal that was mentioned in the other thread. I would like to REQUEST everyone give this topic a break untill Monday am & enjoy time with your family & friends & just forget about this. I feel sure the issues will still be here Monday am. Thanks all & again have a safe & happy holiday.

 

[EastUS]

Good morning to everyone & the moderating team wishes everyone a happy & safe holiday weekend.

Now I'm going to make a proposal that was mentioned in the other thread. I would like to REQUEST everyone give this topic a break untill Monday am & enjoy time with your family & friends & just forget about this. I feel sure the issues will still be here Monday am. Thanks all & again have a safe & happy holiday.

Sound wisdom. Happy Fourth to All!

 

[Captain Underpants]

I contacted a USAPA committee member who I rely on to help me with this and his explanation is not consistent with what underpants is putting out.

You do not "shed" an agreement as, per the RLA, our CBA does not expire. Self-help affords us the leverage to move our position through whatever means we choose, but during these actions nothing goes away.

I remember being told that changing unions would negate the Nicolau and now I'm being told by underpants that self-help will do it instead.

When does it stop?

Skier,

It stops when the Nic award is rendered moot. My point is there are lots of ways to avoid any damage from the Nic award.

Your source in not entirely correct. Our contract has a duration clause so it does "expire". The confusion is that at contract expiration a status quo period is entered automatically so all contract terms and conditions remain in full force and become amendable even though the contract has expired. At self help the company is free to change any or all parts of the contract and the union is free to strike to gain the leverage for its desired contract changes.

It would be of course insane to engage a traditional strike as either the company would fail or the strike would fail as sadly many pilots here would choose to scab. A nontraditional CHAOS strike would impose costs to the point of the company having to decide to sign a fair industry standard pilot contract or risk company failure to maintain an unfair pilot contract. In a CHAOS strike pilots do not risk losing their jobs to scab pilots. Frankly in my opinion if the company cannot afford to pay its pilots a fair wage it should not be in the airline business.

Reaching the self help stage is several years away unless we win the LOA 84 pay in which case the company may expedite the process.

In the meantime events could render Nic moot anyway. Bankruptcy is a possibility where the company would need a union deal. The Bankruptcy judge could cancel Nic if the survival of the company were at stake and Nic was a burden or obstacle to a union deal. We are intimately familiar with what bankruptcy does to contract obligations.

We may be headed for a desperate shotgun merger to prolong our survival or purchase a failing carrier with investor money. This would require union cooperation and a new transition agreement. Also a new seniority integration would have to be negotiated or arbitrated. ALPA merger policy says the pre merger list order must remain while USAPA merger policy is DOH. No other airline would want our 35 year old pilots at the top of any integrated seniority list as they would be permanent career blockers to older pilots.

The 9th circuit appeal has a good chance of reversing some or all of Wake's rulings.

Judge Wake ruled that USAPA may legally change the seniority list for a "legitimate union objective" which could very well materialize as events unfold.

I would put the odds of the Nic award surviving long enough to get into a joint contract at around 25% and the odds of the Nic windfall surviving at nil.

underpants

 

[Captain Underpants]

Good morning to everyone & the moderating team wishes everyone a happy & safe holiday weekend.

Now I'm going to make a proposal that was mentioned in the other thread. I would like to REQUEST everyone give this topic a break untill Monday am & enjoy time with your family & friends & just forget about this. I feel sure the issues will still be here Monday am. Thanks all & again have a safe & happy holiday.

Sorry Edward just read your note after I posted. Great idea.....Happy 4th!

underpants

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

Contracts DO NOT EXPIRE under the RLA, they become amendable, I suggest you read up the the NLRA their contracts expire on a specific date and they are free to strike, CBAs under the RLA you are not free to strike unless you go through the whole act.

That is why negotiations start 60 days prior to the amendable date with both sides exchanging proposals.

Again you fall to understand section 1113, after negotiating with the unions and no agreement is reached, the company can have the judge abrogate the CBA which happened to mechanic and related and fleet, the company at the suggestion of the judge let them vote on final offers, but the company was free to impose any CBA they wanted too and courts have ruled in the NWA case that a contract abrogation and imposition does not give the union the right to strike.

And seniority intergations are now under the auspices of federal law with the McCaskill-Bond Law because of what happened with AA/TW.

I suggest you do some research before you post because your posting wrong information and misinforming your fellow board members.

 

[Megasnoop]

You guys must be truly worried about what may well actually happen as all this plays out. Why else continually offer up the same old nonsense? West strategy = "Hey!..the east's morale may be vulnerable at present! Let's see if we can "move forward" our entire trainload of, and I quote you directly; "whoo whoo, chuga chuga, whoo whoo!" BS, while we think there's a window of opportunity in which to sell it!"

Also worried about how theyre going to pay their attorneys to keep this going through a January damages trial. Thats it, go after our morale. That's all they got left. Keep throwing out the big lie, Saul Alinsky Chicago-style attack, attack, attack. Spare no lie or no exaggeration. Keep repeating it until you wear down the oppostion's will. "The appeal has zero chance, you'll never get the pay raise." Its not working.

Seham is trying to outspend the Addington class, which also means that he is spending USAPA money very liberally.

Seham trying to outspend? Its the West attorneys on wild goose chase to depose ALPA Muchos like Paul Rice and ALPA helpers like Wilson Poll's Phil Comstock. There the ones running up the bills, trying to turn a bizarre conspiracy theory into damages. They know counts 1&2 are gone, so they've dreamed up ALPA-Gate. Without their witch hunt, we could have wrapped up the "damages" trial in August as scheduled. But when Harper started down the conspiracy trail, he opened up the door for us to defend against his nonsense.

I note that you seem to be coming around to my view that it is currently extremely difficult, if not impossible, for USAPA to negotiate with anyone out west because a mechanism does not exist for that. Some folks on both sides of the issue need to start thinking creatively on how that can be done because there are things that need to be resolved and, as I have said before, West reps to the BPR are too conflicted to represent both the BPR and other West folks who aren't USAPA fans at the moment. That needs to change so that the pilots can unify and work on the next contract.

Coming around to YOUR point of view? Never took half a brain to see that. One of the problems USAPA had all along is there never was anyone to negotiate with, just 6 west pilots who declared themselves a class. Majority rules the BPR and there will be no need to unify for a single contract until we have answers on the appeal and LOA84. Your "ah shucks" approach wont change East opinions. We voted in USAPA and we're going to stand by them.

Have a happy 4th and the same to everyone else.

7/10 of us have to work this weekend. That happens every holiday. Im one of the 7.

I contacted a USAPA committee member who I rely on to help me with this and his explanation is not consistent with what underpants is putting out. You do not "shed" an agreement as, per the RLA, our CBA does not expire. Self-help affords us the leverage to move our position through whatever means we choose, but during these actions nothing goes away.

What USAPA committee? Give us intials, we'll see if your making this up. While underpants may not be technically correct on all his points, who cares? Your wrong on self-help. Once both sides are released for self-help, either side can do whatever it wants. The company can cut the pay in half, fire pilots for nothing, they could lock us out and hire replacements before a strike. union can go on strike, slow-down, chaos.

In underpant's example, I was told, if we were released then that would mean the company could impose whatever work rules on us that they wanted so long as they didn't violate FAR's and that is hardly the case.

Whoa, Snowman, thats totally incapatable with your statement above: Self-help affords us the leverage to move our position through whatever means we choose, but during these actions nothing goes away. Keep your story straight, at least in the same posting.

Its irresponsible logic such as this that has gotten us to where we are.

And now after the "facts," comes the commentary. Its irresponsible, inaccurate postings that keep fanning your "woe is me" moaning for the good old ALPA days. We see through you, Snow.

I remember being told that changing unions would negate the Nicolau and now I'm being told by underpants that self-help will do it instead.

What does the first half of your inaccurate sentence have to do with the second half?

When does it stop?

When does it stop? Save me from this horrid fate! "Soylent Green is made of PEOPLE!"

 

[Hawkhunter]

N924PS,
Would you include yourself in the 1600-1800?
FA
[/quote]

You bet J.S. would cross. He is the top 20 on the East which he got by DOH. Now he wants to bid PHX so he is chuming it up with the West. Dont forget, he got his by DOH.