US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[BoeingBoy]

I know you can't be that dense and fly airplanes - do I have to really spell it out for you?

What seniority rights arise from a seniority list? Everything that is determined by seniority - base/equip/seat bidding, vacation bidding, displacement, furlough, recall from furlough, etc, etc, etc. USAPA must "support and defend" those seniority rights. Changing other sections of the contract to nullify the seniority rights "arising from" the Nic list is therefore prohibited and a recipe for at least a contempt citation and possibly DFR all over again.

Nic didn't have to enumerate certain seniority rights - they're inherent in the seniority list.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Contracts do not last forever and when they expire so do the contractual obligations leaving the parties free to walk away or negotiate a new agreement. Injunctions to enforce a contract would dissolve when the contract expires as there is no longer a contract to enforce.

You need to get a refund on your law degree. Maybe you are just a new hire and don’t understand RLA. Airline contracts don’t expire they become amendable. The parties, the company and the union can not just walk away. They have to negotiate changes.

Read the injunction again. The only way that injunction is going to dissolve is if the judge decides. The injunction controls the contract not the other way around.

The entire purpose of self help is to shed unacceptable contract agreements and provide both sides leverage to negotiate new acceptable agreements. This is done through the RLA by canceling the prior agreements and freeing the parties from legal constraints.

A fundamental misunderstanding of RLA. There really is no helping you being this far out.

 

[Captain Underpants]

I know you can't be that dense and fly airplanes - do I have to really spell it out for you?

Nic didn't have to enumerate certain seniority rights - they're inherent in the seniority list.

Jim

As you know it doesn't take a genius to fly airplanes. Thanks for the compliment.

If your assumption is true then the company is doomed. It could never survive a court controlled Nic imposed seniority disaster as you describe.

underpants

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

Jim,
When the IAM went after the company for a major dispute to be declared it was filed in Federal Court in Pittsburgh, PA and heard by the honorable Judge Cindrich.

The IAM won the major dispute, did not strike but a TRO was issued and the work had to cease on the planes in Alabama.

US filed an appeal in PHL and the appeals court ruled it a minor dispute and sent it to arbitration and lifted the TRO.

So I guess Capt Underpants doesnt understand how the process works, I guess he things Denial is a river in Egpyt.

 

[jetjockeyx]

Agreed 100%.... Thank you

underpants

As a longtime lurker and East pilot I have read these boards and been appalled by the attack and counterattack with the same ground plowed and replowed. I have supported the FO's in their crusade and will through the appeal. It stops there.

This latest burnt earth plan of striking for seniority is beyond the pale of reality. I have talked to no other pilots about this but I cannot believe you would get any suipport for this. I believe
the Nicolau is unfair but Nic warned and gave chance to modify your demands. At some point reality must prevail.

Till the appeal is determined or snapback in our dreams.

Blast away.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If your assumption is true then the company is doomed. It could never survive a court controlled Nic imposed seniority disaster as you describe.

I guess that depends on the East. If enough want to destroy the company (how I'm not sure) and take every other employee down with them, no one can make them vote for a combined contract. The $64 million question is do enough of the East pilots want to do that when it really comes down to making a decision - even $125 grand a year is a lot to just walk away from and over half the East pilots make at least that much.

My money is on the West and enough of the East voting for a decent combined contract to pass it.

 

[hp_fa]

Blast away.

Not by me. By the way, welcome.

 

[Metroyet]

DELAY:



The Court hereby continues the damages trial from August 11 to January 19,
2010 at 9:00 a.m.

Why spend any more money? USAPA has basically proclaimed itself bankrupt. There is no money for damages anyway. The Injunction is all the West really needs anyway. Since you can't get blood from a turnip, why spend donated dollars on a fools errand? It's over.

 

[hp_fa]

Why spend any more money? USAPA has basically proclaimed itself bankrupt. There is no money for damages anyway. The Injunction is all the West really needs anyway. Since you can't get blood from a turnip, why spend donated dollars on a fools errand? It's over.

An award of legal fees and costs would be nice. Also, from a strategic viewpoint, an award of damages could hinder perhaps slow the flow of $$$ to SSM&P? Seriously, the current BPR has shown no inclination to stop all the litigation so at least trying to stem the flow of $$$ available to them and SSM&P could help bring resolution sooner rather than later. Think of it in terms of taking the other guys bullets away from him.

 

[oscarjazz]

Talk about dancing on the deck of the Titanic. Gentlemen, you need to pay attention to the financial health of your airline. You are bouncing on the cash covenant of the exit financing package. If you break the covenant, then the whole loan can be called. Your company can't hedge fuel because they have no cash to use as collateral. They went to the convertible market and that money is all used up. They are still having trouble financing brand new A-330 aircraft.

There is not much left. The next step is asset sales. The problem is any asset that is worth buying will further weaken the company. If you guys don't figure out some way to fix your problems and help fix your company, you will not be happy. Your seniority issues will seem quite secondary because when the poop hits the fan, it is going to be ugly.

If LCC can't raise cash soon, they will have to start selling stuff. That will not be good for LCC pilots.

Okay, back to fighting.

 

[cleardirect]

Talk about dancing on the deck of the Titanic. Gentlemen, you need to pay attention to the financial health of your airline. You are bouncing on the cash covenant of the exit financing package. If you break the covenant, then the whole loan can be called. Your company can't hedge fuel because they have no cash to use as collateral. They went to the convertible market and that money is all used up. They are still having trouble financing brand new A-330 aircraft.

There is not much left. The next step is asset sales. The problem is any asset that is worth buying will further weaken the company. If you guys don't figure out some way to fix your problems and help fix your company, you will not be happy. Your seniority issues will seem quite secondary because when the poop hits the fan, it is going to be ugly.

If LCC can't raise cash soon, they will have to start selling stuff. That will not be good for LCC pilots.

Okay, back to fighting.

Very astute observation. Thank you.

Now if that would only sink in to certain portions of the pilot group.

 

[ClueByFour]

Take the Nic award as written and unmodified and start with a blank contract and that is really all USAPA would have to support and defend. Nic probably intended more but we really don't know what was in Nic's mind if it wasn't included in the award or perhaps he left all those assumed seniority rights out of the award intentionally.

If the injunction goes the way the proposed one did, Wake will find USAPA in contempt for trying to negotiate around it.

You really don't get it yet, do you--absent some unlikely help from the 9th Circus, it's LOA 93 or a contact with Nicolau.

Who is feeding you this stuff about how to still avoid it--Seeham? Clearly? An Angry Bradford?

Think this all the way thru.

 

[Phoenix]

As a longtime lurker and East pilot I have read these boards and been appalled by the attack and counterattack with the same ground plowed and replowed. I have supported the FO's in their crusade and will through the appeal. It stops there.

This latest burnt earth plan of striking for seniority is beyond the pale of reality. I have talked to no other pilots about this but I cannot believe you would get any suipport for this. I believe
the Nicolau is unfair but Nic warned and gave chance to modify your demands. At some point reality must prevail.

Till the appeal is determined or snapback in our dreams.

Blast away.

Yeah... East Pilot... uhuh.. named Freudian?

 

[Phoenix]

Ok what exactly are the types of contract modifications that are specifically limited and where does it say that.

up

Do you expect a Panthers bobble head on your car dash to stop shaking his head.

 

[Beancounter]

I think the guys on LTD would differ with you as USAPA won the largest settlemet for them 35 million. I don't know who's talking strike, nobody on the east would go on strike maybe alot of CHAOS especially with the scab history of the west. they have already said they would take a jobs in a second. Is this you Chip with a new name?

luvthe9,

I've heard it referenced before, what is the LTD settlement? Is it both east and west pilots on LTD?

Beancounter