US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/18-6/23-Stay on Topic and Observe the Rules

[Megasnoop]

LOL! Whether you realize it or not the Nicoalu as the list is starting to sink in for you guys.

Not really. No single contract, no NIC. BTW, looks like chance or reversal on appeal and our LOA84 rates starting to sink in on your side.

Did you forget a little thing called the usapa C&BL. It requires usapa to include the DOH list. Did you forget that is what this entire exercise has been about? Getting DOH. So you also admit that using DOH does constitute a DFR.

C&BL must comply with the law. So if we lose, we change it. Big deal. But with a loss in appeals court, do you really think wed be that stupid to put out a TA with DOH? Why? LOA84 pay rates and single operations is something not even the learned Judge Wake can change.

C&BL requires usapa to deliver a DOH contract. Bring something else and they are in violation of their C&BL. Use the Nicolau as the list, then what are we fighting about. Do you need a 2x4?

You repeat, so I repeat. The C&BL must comply with Federal Law. Appeals court decision is Federal law. So we change the C&BL, eliminate any refernce to DOH, get LOA84 pay rates then deliver a TA with NIC. Like that could pass? Put out all the what-ifs you want, Westies. Fact is a win in LOA84 pay rates, I doubt if there will ever be a single contract. IF we lose both LOA84 pay rates AND the 9th Appeal, yeah, we got some head-scratching to do, but I dont think that will happen. We'll know in a year, meanwhile nothing this chat board can do but wait the results.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Pants, I guess you forgot or ignored the third list provision in the T/A. When we eventually have a joint contract. Those new hires go below the two lists.

New hires will always be junior. Not sure what fantasy you are trying to write. DOH, Nicolau,relative pick your method. They are below those of us that were here in 2005.

85% of the original East list will have retired within 10 years and will be replaced by East new hires while under separate ops. That means for example a new East pilot hired in 2011 may be able to bid East A320 Captain in 2015 while you can't. Do you think the new hire East pilots will be inclined to vote for a joint contract that ends separate ops and puts 1700 West pilots ahead of them pushing them from Captain back to junior F/O?

Your real problem is how will you get back to DOH if Wake issues an injunction requiring Nic.

Nic damages all pilots but especially West.

underpants

 

[LSS]

QUOTE
"Did you forget a little thing called the usapa C&BL. It requires usapa to include the DOH list. Did you forget that is what this entire exercise has been about? Getting DOH. So you also admit that using DOH does constitute a DFR."
_________________________

"C&BL must comply with the law. So if we lose, we change it. Big deal. But with a loss in appeals court, do you really think wed be that stupid to put out a TA with DOH? Why? LOA84 pay rates and single operations is something not even the learned Judge Wake can change."
_________________________

Just my take on it... yes the CB&L would have to be changed as it relates to the AWA/AAA merger, but it can be written so that future mergers go DOH. Bottom line... no joint ratified contract... no nic integration anytime in the forseeable future. Wanna know why??? Is there anyone of sane and sound mind that really believes that Doogie is going to "give" this pilot group anywhere near an industry average contract... If you do... then I want whatever it is your drinkin or smokin... Oh I know... the West will just DFR USAPA over it!

 

[nic4us]

Dave Odell could have a 1975 date and not use it back East while under separate ops.



“But then again the company can move 10% of the flying every year or just move it and force usapa to file another grievance.â€￾ WHERE are you getting that?

II. Period of Separate Operations
B). During the first year following the consummation of the Merger Agreement, America West and US Airways will each maintain not less than 80% of the number of aircraft (excluding SJs as defined in the US Airways agreement as amended by this Letter of Agreement) listed by month for that airline in Attachment B.
c). For US Airways, the number of minimum aircraft will be re-established one year after the consummation of the Merger Agreement at the lesser of 279 total aircraft (excluding SJs), or the number of total aircraft then operated by US Airways (excluding SJs) less ten percent (10%), rounded to the nearest aircraft, with the daily utilization rate measured monthly as the average daily utilization rate for the prior twelve months less ten percent (10%).

1st year’s already gone. Theres no yearly 10% reduction after that, no matter how you try spin.

If Dave Odell had a 75 DOH he could have gone back to the east with the other furloughees who were recalled east at USAPA's request. The pilots out West who actually had an east DOH, who refused recall after the Nic, well they are a different story.

When I read the TA I see an allowable 10% per year. If you say that only applies to the first year, that would mean the company can reduce either side at will.

 

[Hate2fly]

85% of the original East list will have retired within 10 years and will be replaced by East new hires while under separate ops. That means for example a new East pilot hired in 2011 may be able to bid East A320 Captain in 2015 while you can't. Do you think the new hire East pilots will be inclined to vote for a joint contract that ends separate ops and puts 1700 West pilots ahead of them pushing them from Captain back to junior F/O?

Your real problem is how will you get back to DOH if Wake issues an injunction requiring Nic.

Nic damages all pilots but especially West.

underpants

Under and Mega,

We all know the ALPA faithful in the east will also start to migrate towards USAPA for the LOA84 pay rates in Jan. 2010.

If they want to fly the "big bus" they must vote with us! They will follow the money!

Also remember the additional money going in to the DC accounts with the pay raise from LOA84.

Interesting times!

 

[nic4us]

85% of the original East list will have retired within 10 years and will be replaced by East new hires while under separate ops. That means for example a new East pilot hired in 2011 may be able to bid East A320 Captain in 2015 while you can't. Do you think the new hire East pilots will be inclined to vote for a joint contract that ends separate ops and puts 1700 West pilots ahead of them pushing them from Captain back to junior F/O?

Your real problem is how will you get back to DOH if Wake issues an injunction requiring Nic.

Nic damages all pilots but especially West.

underpants

What if Wake issues an injunction implementing Nic. That will burst your bubble.

Nic is based on DOH, just in case you missed that. No need to get back to it.

Seperate ops will end when it is finacially beneficial for the company. If you get your 70mil + loa84, we will remain in seperate ops til all flying is transfered out of the east, and you attrition will not keep pace with east reduction, no need for a hypothetical new hire voting.

 

[cleardirect]

Reading all of the rosy little scenarios involve two very critical events.

First event: Return to LOA 84 or something similar. Lets just assume for an minute that it is possible that that does not happen. Or is that outside the realm of possibility? What happens if the east comes across a (gasp) senile old arbitrator that does not understand plain contract language. That for whatever reason the arbitrator does not agree with usapa and sides with the company. How does that effect your future?

We have heard it many times. The arbitrator is suppose to “Split the babyâ€￾ right. The company says no usapa says yes. What is the split? Half wages? No delayed wages? No. How about it gets split that the union has to negotiate what those wages will return to.

The other event that must take place is for the ninth circuit to overturn on appeal. What if you come across three more biased judges that just don’t understand RLA law. That they don’t like usapa or Seham. What if they uphold the ruling?

What if? Where does that leave usapa and the future of separate ops then? Have any of you even considered that a possibility? Now think back and try and remember. Did any of you think that it was even possible that the arbitration would go any way but DOH?

 

[LSS]

Reading all of the rosy little scenarios involve two very critical events.

First event: Return to LOA 84 or something similar. Lets just assume for an minute that it is possible that that does not happen. Or is that outside the realm of possibility? What happens if the east comes across a (gasp) senile old arbitrator that does not understand plain contract language. That for whatever reason the arbitrator does not agree with usapa and sides with the company. How does that effect your future?

We have heard it many times. The arbitrator is suppose to “Split the babyâ€￾ right. The company says no usapa says yes. What is the split? Half wages? No delayed wages? No. How about it gets split that the union has to negotiate what those wages will return to.

The other event that must take place is for the ninth circuit to overturn on appeal. What if you come across three more biased judges that just don’t understand RLA law. That they don’t like usapa or Seham. What if they uphold the ruling?

What if? Where does that leave usapa and the future of separate ops then? Have any of you even considered that a possibility? Now think back and try and remember. Did any of you think that it was even possible that the arbitration would go any way but DOH?

YES

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Former employee. Feel free to go back to my first posts which will leave you with either that impression or make me out to be the most prescient attorney to have ever walked the face of the earth that I could have been here posting all that stuff just knowing all this pilot stuff would occur.

Good grief! I don't have enough life left to do that. I must have missed the post where you said you are a former employee. My bad. I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek when I wrote this about you. The question remains: why on earth are you so interested in what happens at this airline now? Can't close that door? If I had them, I would have left several ex's behind and long forgotten by now.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Hahaha, that is a great title.

You can't use it. I'll sue!

 

[exB717Flyer]

Just my take on it... yes the CB&L would have to be changed as it relates to the AWA/AAA merger, but it can be written so that future mergers go DOH.

Guess you forgot about he McCaskill-Bond law. You know, the one forcing binding arbitration.

 

[nycbusdriver]

kindly show me ONE pilot who will at age 60 or 65 come out with MORE money fighting each other instead of fighting the company. I'll wait patiently for the answer to this.

There are probably hundreds on the east who will get to the widebody captain seat without the Nic, but will remain narrow body f/o's with it.

Piney, you need to go back to complaining about not enough peanuts in the bag, and leave us, east and west, to hash this out. Your comments only display your ignorance of the issue. That's not meant as an insult, but smarter people than you have been baffled by the arcane and intricate issues of pilot pay and seniority.

 

[nycbusdriver]

We also need to make sure the west is brought up to this pay scale!!!

Doug is on video record countless times telling the east pilots that pay parity is out of the question absent a joint contract.

You westies seemed to get a kick out of that, and could not care less about getting the east pilots parity.

What goes around....

 

[nycbusdriver]

Heck, you spend 2-4 nights a week in luxury hotels with wonderful food and free ground transportation to/from work while you are away. Who needs a vacation?

Ah....you never really were a flight attendant, were you?

 

[Dog Wonder]

Whenever I miss Springer, I come here.