US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/18-6/23-Stay on Topic and Observe the Rules

[luvn737s]

Ouch, Fly. I never really thought of it that way. But your right. Quicker upgrades under separate ops with DOH back east. New hires own self-interest (plus the higher pay rates of LOA84) will mean replacing one DOH voter with another. That 2:1 ratio of E Vs W (assuming more than 100 of them join in good standing) will continue til we're all replaced with Mag-Levs.

"Delusions, get your delusions here! Red hot delusions! Get 'em while they're fresh! Here little boy, you look like you could use a delusion"

"Yes, snif, snif, my last one dropped on the ground and went splat." Boo, hoo!

 

[UtterlyUdder]

I'd have to argue that the "human condition" hasn't truly much changed over the course of history, and it's always encumbent on any man/woman to strive to live up to Honor, Integrity, Courage et al, to the maximum extent possible....regardless of contemporary social "fashion". That our current social order's seemingly based upon pure self interest and opportunism affords none any excuse for not striving to do so.

Of course you are quite right, East. Without venturing into religious doctrines, Marcus Aurelius' tenets were spot on. Many who post volumes on this board might find it interesting to look the chap up. Perhaps it might make those who insist that "integrity matters" realize that how they use that phrase here is a slur on honor and the very integrity that they espouse.

 

[cleardirect]

Ouch, Fly. I never really thought of it that way. But your right. Quicker upgrades under separate ops with DOH back east. New hires own self-interest (plus the higher pay rates of LOA84) will mean replacing one DOH voter with another. That 2:1 ratio of E Vs W (assuming more than 100 of them join in good standing) will continue til we're all replaced with Mag-Levs.

First. WHAT? Are you so focused on DOH that you can not even see the illogic of your statement? A new hire will have a DOH of 2010, or 2011. How does that help him? Dave O’Dell has a date of 2005. Why would a new hire vote to stay on a contract with poor working conditions to support the angry F/O’s? With DOH they are still going to be below someone that had a job when this mess started. That does not even make sense.

Quite a sunny little fantasy that you have built up. Keep beating that separate ops drum.

Something that you might want to think about.
At the end of 2009 the company is going to have to throw an additional $35 million to the east for two years. Some rough math means about 10 dollars and hour per pilot additional cost.

IF, big if the east after a year of so does get your snapbacks that drives up the east cost big time.

Now think about this. Parker has already stated many times that the total cost per pilot is about the same east or west. The east pay rate is lower but other parts of the contract cost more. So adding $70 million plus new pay rates.

Big question. Where is the flying go to be moved? Where are the new hires going to go?


With attrition at 1 per day and a higher cost. Man, just not replacing the dinosaurs will shrink the east side very quickly. Those angry F/O’s are going to still be F/O’s because as one leaves so does the flying.

I know the T/A has minimum block hours. For all of your sakes you better hope that usapa put on a good defense of T/A 10. But then again the company can move 10% of the flying every year or just move it and force usapa to file another grievance. Wow go from 3000 on the east to 2400 or less in two years. Shift a majority of that flying west, makes the east 2400 makes the west 2300 pilots.

I guess this falls under the “be careful what you wish for†category. Now tell me that can’t or won’t happen. Parker is all about the money. The east is going to cost him money.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Sounds like a wrap to me, why waste the time trying to convince all of us weekend lawyers. Good luck and I'll see you in a couple of years. BTW, please have USAPA make that damages check out to upe, that's "u" and a "p" and a "e" all combined to spell upe. Thanks

upe

You must be hp's brother. Cloning has gone too far!

 

[hp_fa]

To coin a phrase, "me too". Hp has an inordinate interest in not only the lawsuit but he also is so biased that he leans like the tower of Pisa towards the west. For a time I thought he was a former employee by his avatar.

Former employee. Feel free to go back to my first posts which will leave you with either that impression or make me out to be the most prescient attorney to have ever walked the face of the earth that I could have been here posting all that stuff just knowing all this pilot stuff would occur.

 

[hp_fa]

Then you will have no reason to write your book about USAirways East pilots: People I have Known And Loved.

Hahaha, that is a great title.

 

[Megasnoop]

Kind of an optimistic point of view. But I believe that you missed a few very real possibilities. Very real possibility number 1. The ninth circuit upholds judge Wake and what usapa managed to do was delay this entire group another two years. Now on the 5- 10% chance that the case does get remanded back to judge Wake.

Well, DUH! Almost bordering on pie-in-the-sky. At least I recognize the odds of being tossed entirely. That might be close to your 5%. Yeah, 9th could uphold, but your odds? The reason the 9th only reverses 5-10% is because most of the appeals are on criminal habeas corpus cases. But by then we'll know about our LOA84 pay reinstatement and whether the company is still viable. So we havent lost much. A win on LOA84, we get the best of both worlds - better than industry average pay and still separate ops, meaning no NIC. If theres a retrial, we can pay for it again. Most likely if a retrial, it would be on the ripeness issue, cant be ripe until theres a contract excluding the NIC. Meanwhile, save your money.

We go through the entire trial but this time the jury gets to hear all of that so important evidence that Seham thinks can change the case. Still will not make a difference and we end up right back where we started. The ninth circuit find thats the case is not ripe yet. Not likely but give the benefit of the doubt for a minute. That means that usapa now has to go and negotiate a DOH list with the company. That is not automatic. As the company has already accepted the Nicolau list. Being the company they are not going to just give it to you for free. So the east pilots end up buying the seniority that you say is not for sale. So on a very long shot usapa manages to buy the east seniority. Now this case is ripe.

As I said, if its reversed, worst case for us if on ripeness. Youd be foolish throwing more $$ at it until its ripe. Your making the assumption we'd include DOH, allowing you another bite at the DFR apple. Think we're that stupid? (Dont answer that!) With LOA84 pay rates, we can include NIC in a contract and unless the company is paying a lot more than LOA84, it will never pass. Why cant your side come to grips with that? But evidently your side is coming to grips with the possibility of an appeal win, at least your chief chat legal ace is.

We go back to court and do it all over again. Same outcome DFR.

Only if we vote in a DOH contract. Do I have to hit you with a 2X4 to get your attention? Your in denial on that.

Oh I know what you are thinking. Yes but the east gets separate ops in the mean time so either way you win. Things change. Separate ops very soon may not be in the east’s best interest much longer. As we keep hearing how old the east is. That age 60 rule will start to cut the other way.

You need to reread Hate2flys post. He brought up a whole new scenario on why the age 65 retires wont cut the other way. Even if hes wrong, thats still 5 1/2 years away before West plus East new-hires equals a majority. By then we'd have over 900 pilots bidding and holding wide-body Intl while you guys bask in your DFR "win."

Rakestraw, Rakestraw, Rakestraw. Blah blah blah. Who cares. From the very first day that is the single case that Seham has leaned on. Guess what. In the judge’s first order he told you, usapa and Seham that it would not support the weight that usapa was putting on it. That was a clear signal that Seham needed to find a different case to build a defense. But Seham blindly plowed ahead. Have you though of what happens if the ninth circuit agrees with Wake that Rakestraw does not apply? What happens to your appeal? Have you though of the possibility that Seham might be wrong? Could it be that Seham is the only lawyer in the country that thinks this will work? Has the BPR gotten a second opinion about the appeal?

The 9th Circuit will decide, not your or my posts, and we've leaned on a lot other cases. The appeal will reveal how many others and their significance and wont turn on Rakestraw alone. If we lose, then we lose. With a LOA84 pay rate win, we go back to negotiations using NIC, which will never pass, even after we retire 1800 pilots from 2012-2017. Again, read Hate2flys ditty. Its an eyeopener. I dont see any fault in his logic.

NO! That’s right the only other lawyer that usapa had looking at the appeal got fired. Brengle is out. Could that have something to do with Seham wanting to be the only voice that Cleary hears? Once again the dissenting voice is silenced under the usapa regime.

Bringle was brought in for his court room experience. He did the job. If we're back in court, Bringle will probably be back too. Spin his absence how you want. We dont care much. But funny how you say we spent too much on attorneys but when we reduce the number you criticze?

 

[luvn737s]

Cleary has been asked to star as the Captain in the upcoming movie, Titanic's Revenge Here's a clip:

"Helmsman, turn this ship around. I want to show that iceberg who's boss."

"But, sir WE hit the iceberg, not the other way around"

"Helmsman, I order you to turn this ship around. Hey, my shoes are getting wet"

"Aye aye, cap'n. You're right. It's not over till it's... glug, glug, glug"

 

[Captain Underpants]

Ouch, Fly. I never really thought of it that way. But your right. Quicker upgrades under separate ops with DOH back east. New hires own self-interest (plus the higher pay rates of LOA84) will mean replacing one DOH voter with another. That 2:1 ratio of E Vs W (assuming more than 100 of them join in good standing) will continue til we're all replaced with Mag-Levs.

Snoop and Fly,
You are absolutely correct. It has always been clear to me that the worst case scenario for the West pilots would be to win a DFR lawsuit against USAPA because it would force separate operations until the tipping point. After the demographic tipping point it will not be possible for the West to get back to a DOH list. They would lose the seniority inheritance to the East new hires.

The real prize for the West is the seniority inheritance not the Nic award. By fighting to force the relatively small Nic windfall which they are not entitled to they will lose the big seniority inheritance windfall which they are entitled to. I would think this would be obvious based on the demographics but I guess some won't get it until it is too late.

underpants

 

[ClueByFour]

Its an eyeopener. I dont see any fault in his logic.

Of course, you also thought the DOH cramdown was actually gonna work .

 

[cleardirect]

As I said, if its reversed, worst case for us if on ripeness. Youd be foolish throwing more $$ at it until its ripe. Your making the assumption we'd include DOH, allowing you another bite at the DFR apple. Think we're that stupid? (Dont answer that!) With LOA84 pay rates, we can include NIC in a contract and unless the company is paying a lot more than LOA84, it will never pass. Why cant your side come to grips with that? But evidently your side is coming to grips with the possibility of an appeal win, at least your chief chat legal ace is.

LOL! Whether you realize it or not the Nicoalu as the list is starting to sink in for you guys.

Your making the assumption we'd include DOH,

Did you forget a little thing called the usapa C&BL. It requires usapa to include the DOH list. Did you forget that is what this entire exercise has been about? Getting DOH. So you also admit that using DOH does constitute a DFR.

Only if we vote in a DOH contract. Do I have to hit you with a 2X4 to get your attention? Your in denial on that.

C&BL requires usapa to deliver a DOH contract. Bring something else and they are in violation of their C&BL. Use the Nicolau as the list, then what are we fighting about. Do you need a 2x4?

 

[ClueByFour]

Judge Wake made sure that the jury never heard any of this from Rakestraw - The appeals court will.

The 9th circuit is under no legal obligation to agree with the 7th circuit. Perhaps you guys should try an undergraduate law class before venturing out into the wild....

(Rakestraw is not applicable for any number of reasons, this is just one of them)

 

[cleardirect]

Snoop and Fly,
You are absolutely correct. It has always been clear to me that the worst case scenario for the West pilots would be to win a DFR lawsuit against USAPA because it would force separate operations until the tipping point. After the demographic tipping point it will not be possible for the West to get back to a DOH list. They would lose the seniority inheritance to the East new hires.

The real prize for the West is the seniority inheritance not the Nic award. By fighting to force the relatively small Nic windfall which they are not entitled to they will lose the big seniority inheritance windfall which they are entitled to. I would think this would be obvious based on the demographics but I guess some won't get it until it is too late.

underpants

Pants, I guess you forgot or ignored the third list provision in the T/A. When we eventually have a joint contract. Those new hires go below the two lists.

New hires will always be junior. Not sure what fantasy you are trying to write. DOH, Nicolau,relative pick your method. They are below those of us that were here in 2005.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

I have yet to hear of any west check airman doing any training in CLT. Why would an east check airman be doing any training in PHX. They may be receiving training, but I doubt they are conducting checks in PHX. Perhaps they are. So out of that small group, I would bet an even smaller group (infantismal) has been denied a jumpseat. Maybe it's one guy and maybe he's developing a reputation. I dunno.

If, the checkairman was providing company service in PHX, which the east crews have been using the 757 sim, wouldn't the company provide him/her positive space to the event???

As a west pilot, if our most senior checkairman is riding the j/s, he's just that, a jumpseater. If he's checking me, he's just another checkairman.

This jumpseat garbage wasn't started by the west. I have openly accepted east pilots in my cockpit and hope that they reciprocate. Shame on them if they don't.

This checkairman story keeps resurfacing. Let's move on. I doubt it keeps happening every week.

Someone once told me never treat a fellow pilot poorly, he maybe your boss some day.

 

[Megasnoop]

First. WHAT? Are you so focused on DOH that you can not even see the illogic of your statement? A new hire will have a DOH of 2010, or 2011. How does that help him? Dave O’Dell has a date of 2005. Why would a new hire vote to stay on a contract with poor working conditions to support the angry F/O’s? With DOH they are still going to be below someone that had a job when this mess started. That does not even make sense.

Dave Odell could have a 1975 date and not use it back East while under separate ops. With LOA84 pay rates, beating all west pilots to upgrades, Hate2fly had it right on East new-hire loyalties. Can you imagine the fight among new-hires as to who gets to go east, instead of stuck west.

Quite a sunny little fantasy that you have built up. Keep beating that separate ops drum. Something that you might want to think about. At the end of 2009 the company is going to have to throw an additional $35 million to the east for two years. Some rough math means about 10 dollars and hour per pilot additional cost.

That drum hit a nerve. Thanks for the reminder about that $70M.

IF, big if the east after a year of so does get your snapbacks that drives up the east cost big time. Now think about this. Parker has already stated many times that the total cost per pilot is about the same east or west. The east pay rate is lower but other parts of the contract cost more. So adding $70 million plus new pay rates. Big question. Where is the flying go to be moved? Where are the new hires going to go?

Sure does drive up costs. The TA, with its hour/equiptment floors will still be in place.

With attrition at 1 per day and a higher cost. Man, just not replacing the dinosaurs will shrink the east side very quickly. Those angry F/O’s are going to still be F/O’s because as one leaves so does the flying.

As long as we’re operating under the TA, theres a floor, for both E and W.

I know the T/A has minimum block hours. For all of your sakes you better hope that usapa put on a good defense of T/A 10. But then again the company can move 10% of the flying every year or just move it and force usapa to file another grievance. Wow go from 3000 on the east to 2400 or less in two years. Shift a majority of that flying west, makes the east 2400 makes the west 2300 pilots.

You obviously don’t understand the T/A 10 dispute. The company doesn’t deny they cut back. They just claim they didn’t cut back beyond the TA limits. But nice try at reinventing the TA.

I guess this falls under the “be careful what you wish for†category. Now tell me that can’t or won’t happen. Parker is all about the money. The east is going to cost him money.

LOTS of money. The TA language was put in that way to prevent whipsawing and disproportioned reductions. Again, nice try at letting your imagination run away with reality. You really need to read for understanding, clear.

“But then again the company can move 10% of the flying every year or just move it and force usapa to file another grievance.†WHERE are you getting that?

II. Period of Separate Operations
B). During the first year following the consummation of the Merger Agreement, America West and US Airways will each maintain not less than 80% of the number of aircraft (excluding SJs as defined in the US Airways agreement as amended by this Letter of Agreement) listed by month for that airline in Attachment B.
c). For US Airways, the number of minimum aircraft will be re-established one year after the consummation of the Merger Agreement at the lesser of 279 total aircraft (excluding SJs), or the number of total aircraft then operated by US Airways (excluding SJs) less ten percent (10%), rounded to the nearest aircraft, with the daily utilization rate measured monthly as the average daily utilization rate for the prior twelve months less ten percent (10%).

1st year’s already gone. Theres no yearly 10% reduction after that, no matter how you try spin.