US Pilots labor thread 5/3-

[jetjok1]

Do you think the East should just sit back and except unfairness. USAPA represents the east fairly . Which happens to be the majority. Thats the way things should work!!!!!!!

I say let's vote!! or, if it hasn't happened already, this airline will be left in the dust.

 

[Metroyet]

Do you think the East should just sit back and except unfairness. USAPA represents the east fairly . Which happens to be the majority. Thats the way things should work!!!!!!!

That's exactly the attitude that got you sued, convicted, and soon to be assessed for damages. I don't know what reality you live in, but this idea that you've been "wronged" holds no water. Sorry your career sucked, but let's be honest, there was no shortage of warning signs. USAPA has to represent ALL pilots fairly. Why? Because they demand payment from all pilots. It's hard to imagine at this late date that you don't know that. Nobody cares what the "East" wants and nobody cares that they're the majority. At one point, White people were the majority and voted that blacks should be slaves....does that still sound ok to you? I mean really, Whites were in the "majority'. Is that really the way you think things are going to be ALLOWED to work in 2010?

God knows when you missed it, but whatever train you thought you were on left decades ago. F. USAPA. They and there fake principles of democracy have done nothing but dig you a deeper grave. I don't know how many more obvious signs you need but apparently you still refuse to get it.

And to answer your question...no I don't expect the east to "except" fairness....they've proven that ability long ago. I expect them to "Accept" reality and the fairness they pre-approved.

 

[HogDriver]

Hogdriver, as a military man you should understand the importance of following a process and honoring the results. Alpa merger policy was the process, along with an arbitration. Enough said.

Ah...My fellow pilot Ames. I do understand following process. Trained that way a long time. However, you may not be aware of the particulars that concern myself and about 200 fellow east pilots that were wrongly left out of the merge list. ALPA policy morphed from a strong lean on DOH to a mixed bag that included six or seven requirements for a list to go forward. One of the requirements was no windfall...you can debate that till blue in the face...another was accuracy. The Nic said we were furloughed. We were not. Mainline scope only allows one pilot list on the property . Period. Mid Atlantic was set up to be a stand alone airline. To get ALPA to go along with scope relief and allow 170's to be flown by anyone other than mainline, the union agreed to allow them to be flown by a new start-up as long as first dibs went to recently furloughed US pilots...we had just chopped about 1000 fellow pilots to the street thanks to 9/11. Some with 15+ years with the company...unpresidented. It had protocalls for up and down bidding with mainline. If it had gone as planned you would be correct...I would have been considered furloughed...and gee, gosh, sorry but Nic is accurate. But...the old US Air management...dishonerable C%^&sukers all...pulled a fast one. They were denied a new certificate from the FAA, so they covertly acted as if Mid Atlantic was a stand alone when in fact it was kept under US mainline's cert. US ALPA's scope was pretty clear...you on the certificate...you on the one list known as mainline. Now I won't bore you with our struggle to get our own MEC to fix this shell game. But suffice to say when it came time to put our list before Mr. Nic, our union had made clear the intention to include all 200-300 Mid Atlantic pilots in the unified list. Remember...we had all been here with the company 15 years or so. During the Nic hearings...I watched as ALPA lawyers representing the West dismissed us as some"other" group of pilots...not to be included in the merged list as active. Mr. Nic had no clue what we were. Ultimately, ALPA national was told...after the Nic came out...Hey, this list ain't accurate!!! But the easy way out was to just sacrifice a few fellow long-term pilots careers in the name of pushing the Nic forward. ALPA national never had any balls to do the right thing and adjust the list. That would have been hard to do...but the right thing. My fellow pilots and I were trying to follow process.

Your position on the Nicolau list is below a 2005 hire at AWA who, as you stated, is no longer working. He was working mainline when the merger happened, you were not. The fact that he is no longer working while those who were on furlough then is a blatant injustice.

Hopefully you can see we never left mainline. Longevity with a company should count for something. US pilots have gone fowards and backwords for years. Not their fault. The Nic catches a momentary down swing and allows very Jr pilots to take a bit of an advantage. And I get that US was on the ropes at the time. But as proved out with time...this merger was needed for both our groups.

I agree that the east pilots have made more than their share of sacrafices over the past twenty years but it is not up to the AWA pilots to make it right for them. We were part of a growing and profitable company in 2005 while the east pilots had very little hope of being employed in 2006. Now we have pilots on furlough while east pilots enjoy bringing a paycheck home to their families.

My friend...that is very debatable. We see how growing can turn to shrinking very quickly (LAS). It is common knowledge the the West (Nor the east) could not stand alone with out the merge. The pilots on the street right now...who I want back as soon as possible...were at the end of the list. Hired in 2005 (or so). Please correct me if I am wrong. The east has Jr pilots on the street also. It's the way it works as crappy as that is. My only question is where do we go from here?

When you were hired is irrelevant in a merger, especially if you were not working at the time. Your position on the seniority list is all that matters and to be compared to the position of a pilot on the other carrier's list, the relative position of each pilot is the only fair way to do so. All pilots actively working mainline at the time of the merger are within a few % points of their relative position on the Nic list vis a vis their original carrier's list. - with the clear exception of the top 517 AWA pilots.

I get that...I really do except for one thing...does longevity at a job mean anything? I mean a new hired pilot knows he is on the bottom...sometimes for a long time. But to have a guy who just shows up...un wraps the manuals and now is senior to a fellow pilot 15 years on the job with no furlough?

With the exception of the few knuckleheads who throw that "gear up" kind of comment I believe the west pilots have more than taken the high road in this cluster#$%^. We are paying for justice out of our own pockets all the while paying the "union" for perpetuating injustice.

Glad to see we can agree on the kiddies who make the dumb statements. I want my west fellow pilots to try and see that the moves by USAPA have merit in trying to fix what a lot of us in the east see as a very slanted and inaccurate arbitration. Does USAPA have the right to appeal? Well...yes. Doing that right now. Is it an organization set only to screw over former Am West pilots...I firmly believe not. Ultimately it may come that a binding arbitrator...even if given inaccurate data...rules as he did in Nic and can not be challenged. OK...Fine. Courts and judges and juries and lawyers did their thing. Sometimes you get the bear...sometimes he gets you. Now let's get on with fixing our careers. We are all in this together in the end...remember?

I agree that we must move on and believe that we can only do so once the court system has finally spoken. That's what we're all waiting for.

 

[HogDriver]

I am surprised no one seems to have commented on my thoughts of longevity pay. Am I alone in seeing this as a possible solution to the great divide between east and west?

"A possible solution to the damage done by Nic to pilots like myself who find us once again at the very bottom of a seniority list after 20+ years would be to explore longevity based pay. It has merits even without the Nic. Other carriers use it...check out UPS where senior pilots fly domestic 727's and are home every night while Jr pilots fly Int'l 747. It takes away seat lust...training is reduced...you bid lifestyle not equipment. We always negotiate pay starting at the top with wide-body being holy grail. News flash...we don't have enough wide-bodies to go around here at US. Leveling and balancing the pay based on longevity only IS fair...and very doable. I know I don't want to be flying the Atlantic tracks at 65. Puts you in an early grave."


Thoughts????

 

[cynic]

I am surprised no one seems to have commented on my thoughts of longevity pay. Am I alone in seeing this as a possible solution to the great divide between east and west?

"A possible solution to the damage done by Nic to pilots like myself who find us once again at the very bottom of a seniority list after 20+ years would be to explore longevity based pay. It has merits even without the Nic. Other carriers use it...check out UPS where senior pilots fly domestic 727's and are home every night while Jr pilots fly Int'l 747. It takes away seat lust...training is reduced...you bid lifestyle not equipment. We always negotiate pay starting at the top with wide-body being holy grail. News flash...we don't have enough wide-bodies to go around here at US. Leveling and balancing the pay based on longevity only IS fair...and very doable. I know I don't want to be flying the Atlantic tracks at 65. Puts you in an early grave."


Thoughts????

It would represent another DFR claim against USAPA should they suggest it. Wake was prepared for that particular end run.

 

[HogDriver]

It would represent another DFR claim against USAPA should they suggest it. Wake was prepared for that particular end run.

And exactly how is that an end run? We have graduated payrates now...simply tieing payrates soley to years of service, eliminating different equipment catagories and closing the gap between left and right seat is bad for whom exactly? East US did it to some degree last contract when we bundled up equipment into 4 catagories instead of 7 or 8 different jets. How would a 15 year west pilot claim DFR when he is paid exactly the same as a 15 yr east pilot?

 

[luvn737s]

This has been discussed here before. Longevity pay would gut every other section of the contract because it would be enormously expensive. No one would be willing to fall on their sword to correct a temporary problem that will correct itself.

 

[luvthe9]

I am surprised no one seems to have commented on my thoughts of longevity pay. Am I alone in seeing this as a possible solution to the great divide between east and west?

"A possible solution to the damage done by Nic to pilots like myself who find us once again at the very bottom of a seniority list after 20+ years would be to explore longevity based pay. It has merits even without the Nic. Other carriers use it...check out UPS where senior pilots fly domestic 727's and are home every night while Jr pilots fly Int'l 747. It takes away seat lust...training is reduced...you bid lifestyle not equipment. We always negotiate pay starting at the top with wide-body being holy grail. News flash...we don't have enough wide-bodies to go around here at US. Leveling and balancing the pay based on longevity only IS fair...and very doable. I know I don't want to be flying the Atlantic tracks at 65. Puts you in an early grave."


Thoughts????

Great idea. But you are going to see the West guys will not go for it. This would solve a lot of it all. Get ready to fire some flares, and check 6, 8, and 12. They are going to come after you from every angle if you don't buy their deal.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Anything that mitigates the effects of the Nic will be viewed as tampering with the Nic. The west posters here and on other boards have already stated it would be another DFR issue.

We either win or lose in the 9th - and should we lose, the only remaining firewall is a no vote on a contract.

 

[cactusboy53]

I am surprised no one seems to have commented on my thoughts of longevity pay. Am I alone in seeing this as a possible solution to the great divide between east and west?

"A possible solution to the damage done by Nic to pilots like myself who find us once again at the very bottom of a seniority list after 20+ years would be to explore longevity based pay. It has merits even without the Nic. Other carriers use it...check out UPS where senior pilots fly domestic 727's and are home every night while Jr pilots fly Int'l 747. It takes away seat lust...training is reduced...you bid lifestyle not equipment. We always negotiate pay starting at the top with wide-body being holy grail. News flash...we don't have enough wide-bodies to go around here at US. Leveling and balancing the pay based on longevity only IS fair...and very doable. I know I don't want to be flying the Atlantic tracks at 65. Puts you in an early grave."


Thoughts????

HD;
Presently when a pilot returns from a LOA, furlough, LTD, etc...that person is paid according to the longevity that he or she has accrued. Beyond that I believe the NAC is looking at a slightly higher percentage of Captain's pay for First Officers in the contract negotiations. At nine year pay, I'm just south of 90. Under the proposed wages (if achieved) that same longevity would go to north of 115. Cap pay (I think) will be 15 years @ 120 (??).

Regarding PHL / CLT bases (including WB flying) will only see a maximum of 250 PHX pilots show up. The remainder are firmly ensconced in the desert lifestyle.

You would have to call your BPR reps and the NAC officers to get the full read on where they are.

BTW, thank you for the very mature synopsis previously. We really can use much more of that.

Regards.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Your position on the Nicolau list is below a 2005 hire at AWA who, as you stated, is no longer working. He was working mainline when the merger happened, you were not. The fact that he is no longer working while those who were on furlough then is a blatant injustice.

The blatant injustice is flying 24% of your block hours on East routes. Your "jobs" went out the door when oil rose above $35 a barrel.

To have East pilots on the street while West pilots fly their jobs ....... whatever.

 

[luvthe9]

And exactly how is that an end run? We have graduated payrates now...simply tieing payrates soley to years of service, eliminating different equipment catagories and closing the gap between left and right seat is bad for whom exactly? East US did it to some degree last contract when we bundled up equipment into 4 catagories instead of 7 or 8 different jets. How would a 15 year west pilot claim DFR when he is paid exactly the same as a 15 yr east pilot?

I applaud your efforts Hogdriver. You have some good ideas. But it is going to be very interesting to see how long it takes for them to get you to the point where you are totally engaged with the west. The Mid Atlantic debacle is going to be the first issue. Good luck!

 

[luvthe9]

HD;
Presently when a pilot returns from a LOA, furlough, LTD, etc...that person is paid according to the longevity that he or she has accrued. Beyond that I believe the NAC is looking at a slightly higher percentage of Captain's pay for First Officers in the contract negotiations. At nine year pay, I'm just south of 90. Under the proposed wages (if achieved) that same longevity would go to north of 115. Cap pay (I think) will be 15 years @ 120 (??).

Regarding PHL / CLT bases (including WB flying) will only see a maximum of 250 PHX pilots show up. The remainder are firmly ensconced in the desert lifestyle.

You would have to call your BPR reps and the NAC officers to get the full read on where they are.

BTW, thank you for the very mature synopsis previously. We really can use much more of that.

Regards.

A maximum of 250 pilots showing up. That is until they close PHX and the rest of the tribe shows up. Just like PSA.

 

[cactusboy53]

A maximum of 250 pilots showing up. That is until they close PHX and the rest of the tribe shows up. Just like PSA.

WOW. I had no idea that Phoenix was in such dire trouble!! Here America West just barely eked out a living for 22 years prior to the "merge" with US Air!! We have now been collectively in PHX for 27 years, and please don't forget that PHX is the location of the company headquarters. Southwest must be as close to packing their bags as well!! I can see why you live in fear that PHX will close that base as well....... :blink: :blink: :blink:

Here are some things about PHX that you might not know:

Facts about Phoenix, Arizona

Population

* Phoenix is the United States' sixth-largest city
* The city has a population of almost 1.3 million
* Greater Phoenix has a population of 2.8 million

Climate

* The average annual high temperature is 85 degrees
* Phoenix averages 300 sun-filled days a year

Tourism

* Greater Phoenix has consistently ranked among the nation's top destinations in the number of Five Diamond/Five Star resorts
* Metropolitan Phoenix has more than 45,000 hotel rooms
* Phoenix/Scottsdale was rated the nation's top hotel destination by Zagat Survey of frequent travelers (1997)
* More than 12 million people visit Phoenix each year
* More than 25 million people visit Arizona each year
* 62 percent of all Greater Phoenix visitors are leisure travelers
* 38 percent visit for convention or business reasons
* 8 out of 10 Greater Phoenix visitors plan to return for future visits

Economy

* The area's major industries are 1) high-tech manufacturing; 2) tourism; and, 3) construction

Recreation

* Greater Phoenix is home to 190+ golf courses
* Three major professional golf tournaments have regular stops in Greater Phoenix: The Phoenix Open (PGA), the Standard Register Turquoise Classic (LPGA) and The Tradition (Senior PGA)
* Scottsdale is the home to the largest yearly collector car auction (Barrett - Jackson)
* Phoenix is home to the largest municipal park in the world. South Mountain Park covers more than 20,000 acres
* The Phoenix area has more than 1,700 acres of parkland
* Six lakes are located within a 75-minute drive of Phoenix

Sports

* Phoenix hosted the NFL's Super Bowl XXX, January 28, 1996
* Metro Phoenix hosts the Tostitos Fiesta Bowl (college football festival) EVERY YEAR
* Professional sports teams include Arizona Cardinals (NFL), Arizona Diamondbacks (MLB), Phoenix Suns (NBA), Phoenix Coyotes (NHL), Phoenix Mercury (WNBA) and the Arizona Thunder (indoor soccer)
* Phoenix joined the ranks of Major League Baseball cities in 1998 when the Arizona Diamondbacks began play at Bank One Ballpark
* Greater Phoenix plays host to seven major league baseball teams each spring as part of the Cactus League. The San Francisco Giants, Seattle Mariners, Oakland Athletics, Chicago Cubs, San Diego Padres, Milwaukee Brewers and Anaheim Angels conduct their annual spring training programs in the area
* Phoenix is home to many different motor sports. Included are Indy Car and NASCAR events at Phoenix International Raceway, drag racing at Manzanita Speedway, and boat racing at Firebird International Raceway (and we know how you CLT folks love your NASCAR).

 

[luvthe9]

WOW. I had no idea that Phoenix was in such dire trouble!! Here America West just barely eked out a living for 22 years prior to the "merge" with US Air!! We have now been collectively in PHX for 27 years, and please don't forget that PHX is the location of the company headquarters. Southwest must be as close to packing their bags as well!! I can see why you live in fear that PHX will close that base as well....... :blink: :blink: :blink:

Here are some things about PHX that you might not know:

Facts about Phoenix, Arizona

Population

* Phoenix is the United States' sixth-largest city
* The city has a population of almost 1.3 million
* Greater Phoenix has a population of 2.8 million

Climate

* The average annual high temperature is 85 degrees
* Phoenix averages 300 sun-filled days a year

Tourism

* Greater Phoenix has consistently ranked among the nation's top destinations in the number of Five Diamond/Five Star resorts
* Metropolitan Phoenix has more than 45,000 hotel rooms
* Phoenix/Scottsdale was rated the nation's top hotel destination by Zagat Survey of frequent travelers (1997)
* More than 12 million people visit Phoenix each year
* More than 25 million people visit Arizona each year
* 62 percent of all Greater Phoenix visitors are leisure travelers
* 38 percent visit for convention or business reasons
* 8 out of 10 Greater Phoenix visitors plan to return for future visits

Economy

* The area's major industries are 1) high-tech manufacturing; 2) tourism; and, 3) construction

Recreation

* Greater Phoenix is home to 190+ golf courses
* Three major professional golf tournaments have regular stops in Greater Phoenix: The Phoenix Open (PGA), the Standard Register Turquoise Classic (LPGA) and The Tradition (Senior PGA)
* Scottsdale is the home to the largest yearly collector car auction (Barrett - Jackson)
* Phoenix is home to the largest municipal park in the world. South Mountain Park covers more than 20,000 acres
* The Phoenix area has more than 1,700 acres of parkland
* Six lakes are located within a 75-minute drive of Phoenix

Sports

* Phoenix hosted the NFL's Super Bowl XXX, January 28, 1996
* Metro Phoenix hosts the Tostitos Fiesta Bowl (college football festival) EVERY YEAR
* Professional sports teams include Arizona Cardinals (NFL), Arizona Diamondbacks (MLB), Phoenix Suns (NBA), Phoenix Coyotes (NHL), Phoenix Mercury (WNBA) and the Arizona Thunder (indoor soccer)
* Phoenix joined the ranks of Major League Baseball cities in 1998 when the Arizona Diamondbacks began play at Bank One Ballpark
* Greater Phoenix plays host to seven major league baseball teams each spring as part of the Cactus League. The San Francisco Giants, Seattle Mariners, Oakland Athletics, Chicago Cubs, San Diego Padres, Milwaukee Brewers and Anaheim Angels conduct their annual spring training programs in the area
* Phoenix is home to many different motor sports. Included are Indy Car and NASCAR events at Phoenix International Raceway, drag racing at Manzanita Speedway, and boat racing at Firebird International Raceway (and we know how you CLT folks love your NASCAR).

Cactusboy, not challenging the merits of PHX. Luv the place and the wx. The point is this- you can have the best city and hub in the world. As long as it has USAirways on the podium, EVERY city in the system is in danger! CLT, PHL PHX. Nobody wants PHX to shut down, believe me, the East hopes it grows and gets W/B flying. Natural fences