US Pilots labor thread 5/3-

[CallawayGolf]

From the document you provided a link to, from Al Hemmingway:

"Under the Transition agreement, an integrated pilot seniority list list cannot be used by the Company until a single agreement has been reached."

Don't spend that money yet. It says "has", not could have, maybe should have, if not but for, but HAS been reached, and it HAS NOT been reached.

A single agreement hasn't been reached because the MIGS keep voting down every TA USAPA and the Company put out there, right? No wait, USAPA has been on property for more than two years and has only accomplished moving the process further away from a negotiated agreement rather than closing the gaps, which is their obligated and delegated duty. Fortunately the federal courts are not fooled by USAPA’s tactics and strategies and are clamping down on this rogue outfit using judicial fiat to compel USAPA to perform their duties and stop their continued discrimination against the west pilots. The only question that will have to be answered soon is whether or not accepting the NIC is more or less painful than opposing the full authority of a federal court.

 

[signals]

Sign me up for longevity pay as well. When you get to bid for a certain lifestyle rather than chasing the $$$ you tend to be a bit happier. Of course we would need to see some improvements in scheduling to truly benefit from this.

Your longevity pay must be in the big bucks. You must deal with dollars while I deal in cents. After 15 y.ears I made 25 cents for longevity. But I appreciate it because it keeps me ahead of the rest! Your lifestyle is the cause of the cancer and problems that result in your downfall. 😛 Little things are appreciated by the insignificant fleas among us!

 

[OTTER574]

Your jobs, just like the east's, were saved by this merger. You show me where an east pilot has flown an airplane or route not allowed by the TA. As I posted to OTTER above:



"Under the Transition agreement, an integrated pilot seniority list list cannot be used by the Company until a single agreement has been reached."

Please do your research. You ever hear of the TA 10 block hour grievance win for the west? Solution is still pending.

 

[cactusboy53]

You could make the same points and more for LAX, SFO and SAN. All thriving PSA bases and ops. Airways canned each and every one of them. It can happen

Well, then let us hope & pray that Parker has learned that PSA lesson. PSA disappeared from the west coast only to have Alaska, SW and of course America West move right on in.

 

[HogDriver]

Depending on what you mean by longevity pay, I believe it is doable and not necessarily in violation of the injunction. However, posters have suggested pay based soley on longevity without regard to seat and equiptment, and I would not be in favor of that. More workable is just a simple extension of F/O payscales. Where captain pay tops out at say 15 years and F/O pay at 15 years equals 65% of 15 yr cpt pay, 20 yrs equals 75% of 15 yr cpt, 25 yrs equals 85% 15 yr cpt pay.

Nic4 why do you want equipment pay? There would be a difference between capt and f/o rates, but a more rational and balanced difference. But when you take out the equipment (tell me why a 757 pays more than an AB), then you don't have to chase a pay raise. You get one every year. Examples I have seen shows it to be a better over all way to fairly pay an entire pilot group. There are no haves and have nots. I have flown everything here at US. To be paid $125 to sit in one right seat, and $86 to sit in another makes no sence. I'm not doing more or different work. Just a different jet. We don't have that many wide bodies. I believe we come out better when you spread the wealth around than to keep it with small peaks and big valleys.

I have also seen the idea of extending pay scales for long term f/o's...but if you keep the existing pay structure the money has to come from somewhere. To pay 25 year f/os then the top rates will likely need to be cut. There is only so much pay to go around the entire group.

Again I come back to balanced longevity pay as the fair way especially at this airline with such a small wide body fleet. What good is it to get hi pay rates for them if only a fraction of the pilots will ever get to fly them?

 

[Freebird]

Nic4 why do you want equipment pay? There would be a difference between capt and f/o rates, but a more rational and balanced difference. But when you take out the equipment (tell me why a 757 pays more than an AB), then you don't have to chase a pay raise. You get one every year. Examples I have seen shows it to be a better over all way to fairly pay an entire pilot group. There are no haves and have nots. I have flown everything here at US. To be paid $125 to sit in one right seat, and $86 to sit in another makes no sence. I'm not doing more or different work. Just a different jet. We don't have that many wide bodies. I believe we come out better when you spread the wealth around than to keep it with small peaks and big valleys.

I have also seen the idea of extending pay scales for long term f/o's...but if you keep the existing pay structure the money has to come from somewhere. To pay 25 year f/os then the top rates will likely need to be cut. There is only so much pay to go around the entire group.

Again I come back to balanced longevity pay as the fair way especially at this airline with such a small wide body fleet. What good is it to get hi pay rates for them if only a fraction of the pilots will ever get to fly them?

I agree a lot of your first (longer) post and I do think that there should be higher pay for longevity for F/O's. What is the top of the F.O. pay scale now 12 or 15 years? A graduated scale from years 1-12, then larger bump for 20 year and another for 25 year F.O. ? Example 25 year F.O. should be about 85% of 25 year Captain pay.

I think there should be Narrow Body and Widebody differences however. But to skip around airplanes over $5/8.00 per flight hour doesn't make a lot of sense if the flying is similar. It does burn a lot of money in the training department however with all the changing of seats.

 

[OTTER574]

Nic4 why do you want equipment pay? There would be a difference between capt and f/o rates, but a more rational and balanced difference. But when you take out the equipment (tell me why a 757 pays more than an AB), then you don't have to chase a pay raise. You get one every year. Examples I have seen shows it to be a better over all way to fairly pay an entire pilot group. There are no haves and have nots. I have flown everything here at US. To be paid $125 to sit in one right seat, and $86 to sit in another makes no sence. I'm not doing more or different work. Just a different jet. We don't have that many wide bodies. I believe we come out better when you spread the wealth around than to keep it with small peaks and big valleys.

I have also seen the idea of extending pay scales for long term f/o's...but if you keep the existing pay structure the money has to come from somewhere. To pay 25 year f/os then the top rates will likely need to be cut. There is only so much pay to go around the entire group.

Again I come back to balanced longevity pay as the fair way especially at this airline with such a small wide body fleet. What good is it to get hi pay rates for them if only a fraction of the pilots will ever get to fly them?

Seems you're taking a page right out of the old continental book under frank lorenzo. Seems they had something simular if I'm not mistaken. A true scenario from the awa contract PHX-SMF normally is a 737 and gets upgraded to a 757. 757 flies with a potential of 60 +/- seats of revenue but the crew on the 757 actually get paid less because of the average block times for the trip are less.


Please look at all of the parameters, not just the ones that suit you.

 

[Ames]

Hogdriver, believe it or not, I am aware of the particulars that concern yourself and about 200 of your fellow pilots. I am also aware that none of you managed to raise a fuss over your situation until after the arbitration was completed. The time to challenge your standing on your seniority list would have been prior to your MEC handing over a certified list to the west MEC.

I am also aware that you left US Airways in response to a furlough letter and returned to the company in response to a recall letter. Am I correct? Did you ever raise a challenge to either of those letters? You will have to try a lot harder to convince me that you never left mainline. I believe you are having enough trouble trying to convince the court system of the same. Please explain to your fellow east pilots who chose not to work at MDA while furloughed why you should step ahead of them on the seniority list because you "never left mainline" while flying a commuter.

You say the Nic catches a momentary downswing - is fifteen years momentary? Let's not keep getting wrapped around the axle regarding longevity. It is only worth something at your original company. I have already explained in my last response to you about relativity in comparing two separate seniority lists.

I know that you believe it is debatable whether AWA was growing and thriving at merger time, although you admit that the east was "on the ropes". America west had three successive quarters of profitability while east was weeks away from liquidation. Would anyone deny that had the east liquidated that the entire industry would have benefited, including AWA? Like him or not Parker is no dope and he would have made the very best of that situation. I also believe that Parker did the best thing in putting this merger together, thus saving thousands of jobs. It has not been good for me but, this isn't about me. I have more faith in him than most and believe that he can do more with this place if given the chance.

I know that the vast majority of east pilots believe, as you do, that Nicolau didn't get it right. You stated once that he had no clue who you were (in regards to MDA) while you were trying not to bore me with the details of your plight. I am here to tell you that Mr.Nicolau knew exactly who you were and exactly what he was doing and am willing to bet that the majority of east pilots did not read the transcripts of the arbitration nor the text of the arbitrated award.

I am glad that we agree that we must move on and am quite sure that we will once the court speaks.

PS: did you fly the only airplane in the Air Force that received bird strikes from the rear? 🙂

 

[Ames]

The blatant injustice is flying 24% of your block hours on East routes. Your "jobs" went out the door when oil rose above $35 a barrel.

To have East pilots on the street while West pilots fly their jobs ....... whatever.

....And the east isn't flying any formerly west routes either - at least in your world.

....."whatever". Reminds me of having a conversation with my teenager. Are you a teenager or don't you have anything more intelligent to say?

 

[Ames]

When the east starts recalling later this year, I'm sure the West furloughed pilots will be offered positions at the bottom of the East seniority list after all of the other East hired pilots from 2007 and 2008 have been recalled. That is....if they want to come back as an E190 F/O.

....And, somehow, you believe that this is right. Sickening.

 

[Pi brat]

You had that same right under alpa cba and still do under usapa cba. Nothing new here but the problem is, you on the east can't form a union to break federal law. BTW, not spending that money from this so called airline merger. I never expected it. Seems gold is in right now.. 🙂

Believe you me, never in a MILLION YEARS did I ever want to work for us air. Having gone through 2 airline bankruptcies and losing my A plan (pbgc annual report) in the process, all under the alpa umbrella btw. Makes you sit back and become somewhat guarded for misdeeds of others.

Pi brat, the list is done, move on or face the consequences.

I didn't want to work for US Air, I got here the same way you did, but I've tried to make the best of it and for all the ups and downs I've never missed a paycheck and helped my raise my kids with a pretty good standard of living.

USAPA has been found guilty of DFR and if upheld what you say is true. I accepted this long ago, but I also accepted that some others would not accept it, and I had hoped that our leaders would come up with a better solution. It didn't happen, so here we are. We all have to lie in the bed WE made.

 

[Pi brat]

Please do your research. You ever hear of the TA 10 block hour grievance win for the west? Solution is still pending.

Why yes I have, the one filed and won by USAPA for the west pilots. What does that have to do with what I posted about the TA?

 

[GuntherA320]

....And, somehow, you believe that this is right. Sickening.

It's not a matter of what is right or wrong. It is what was negortiated. We still operate as two separate groups. This is what ALPA negotiated with the company. For all the talk about not honoring agreements I would think you would understand. Once the 9th has ruled and a contract has been voted in, those west pilots that choose to take recall at the bottom of the east list would take their rightful places. Until then that's just the way it is.

 

[Pi brat]

Also from the TA, in regards to seniority integration," furloughed pilots may not bump/displace active pilots".

Yet 8 former east "fuloughed pilots", who were recalled to the West were allowed to transfer back east and retain employment while "active" pilots were shown the door. I assume they are flying the e190 that the West has rights to by the way.

Aided by usapa, who thought it was going to unilaterally rewrite the seniority list, and violate the TA, and let these and other east pilots take West jobs, these 8 are currently flying and should not have been allowed to, as per the TA.

I disagree. As I remember it the east pilots were allowed to go west, on the bottom of the list, instead of hiring off the street. When the west reduction came and they hit the street, they were allowed by the company and USAPA to recapture their east seniority, and new hires below them were furloughed. A west pilot was never on the east seniority list, so they could not go east, at least with NIC seniority because the TA said what I posted above. Now, I would say the they should have been able to go east if there were any new hires left (the so called, does it or doesn't exist 3rd list), but they are gone too. If the east need new pilots, I think west pilots on furlough should be offered slots on the east, at the bottom of the list, after anyone on the east list is called back. Just like the company did on the west, until we have a joint contract and then the combined seniority list is put into place.

You never answered my question. Show me an east pilot that is flying a west airplane in place of a west pilot. You can't, it hasn't happened, just like the TA said. Doug has clearly said the west is flying 24% of former east flying and the east is flying 4% of former west flying. Oh, that's right, you guys on believe him when it doesn't favor your argument. You guys always argue both side of this stuff.

 

[East Hole]

That's exactly the attitude that got you sued, convicted, and soon to be assessed for damages. I don't know what reality you live in, but this idea that you've been "wronged" holds no water. Sorry your career sucked, but let's be honest, there was no shortage of warning signs. USAPA has to represent ALL pilots fairly. Why? Because they demand payment from all pilots. It's hard to imagine at this late date that you don't know that. Nobody cares what the "East" wants and nobody cares that they're the majority. At one point, White people were the majority and voted that blacks should be slaves....does that still sound ok to you? I mean really, Whites were in the "majority'. Is that really the way you think things are going to be ALLOWED to work in 2010?

God knows when you missed it, but whatever train you thought you were on left decades ago. F. USAPA. They and there fake principles of democracy have done nothing but dig you a deeper grave. I don't know how many more obvious signs you need but apparently you still refuse to get it.

And to answer your question...no I don't expect the east to "except" fairness....they've proven that ability long ago. I expect them to "Accept" reality and the fairness they pre-approved.

Struck a raw nerve here!! Now east pilots are white and west pilots are black = weird. I still think in 2010 the majority will rule in any USAPA vote.