US Pilots labor thread 5/3-

[end_of_alpa]

So, you think a Federal Judge is going to let your BPR just pull the ripcord on usapa and walk away from any judgement that may be handed down.


Good Luck with that.


Flip

So, the BPR is liable for damages if another union is voted in??

Is AOL liable for the damages if They're voted in?? Is the company liable for the damages if the union is voted out?

If there is NO union, how can you hold the "former" officers liable for something they DIDN'T or COULDN'T do...like keep the union in???

Good luck with that.

We are now doomed to failure. They will be no CBA. Been five years and counting.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Now were're back to decertifying usapa bs again. I read on here something about farm animals and when they fly, LOL. Enjoy all those union grievances that will go away or get stalled forever without a so called union.

Usapa has made it's own bed and broke federal law in the process. Get comfortable in usapa's bed with regards to the final and binding NIC Award and the Federal Injunction, because it's here to stay.

You must be one of those pilots that wear the UNION PILOT backer id. What a shame.

No USAPA, no union.

As I said before, becareful what you wish for.

You sued USAPA. Not the company. Go ahead and strike for what you want and see what happens.

Looking forward to that pay raise!!! 5 years and counting.

 

[cleardirect]

So, the BPR is liable for damages if another union is voted in??

Is AOL liable for the damages if They're voted in?? Is the company liable for the damages if the union is voted out?

If there is NO union, how can you hold the "former" officers liable for something they DIDN'T or COULDN'T do...like keep the union in???

Good luck with that.

We are now doomed to failure. They will be no CBA. Been five years and counting.

You have been reading way to much usapa propaganda. AOL is not a union, they do not want to be a union, never said that they wanted to be a union.

The only purpose of AOL is to enforce the Nicolau and make sure usapa or any other union complies with binding arbitration.

Question, who makes up the union? It would be the pilots. The pilots remain liable for any damages. How that money gets collected and distributed is a good question but that can be overcome.

If the east pilots pick up your ball and go home the award stays. Your protection goes, your grievances go, your pension investigation goes, the only thing you are left with is LOA 93. I think that the PHX domicile might put together a nice little working group to air grievances and maybe even work on a new contract. Separate ops and all we are in section 6. No union no one to tell us what we can and can not do.

Enjoy your dream.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You have been reading way to much usapa propaganda. AOL is not a union, they do not want to be a union, never said that they wanted to be a union.

No. They just want to strip every pilot of their vote so they can get there way.

The only purpose of AOL is to enforce the Nicolau and make sure usapa or any other union complies with binding arbitration.

The only purpose of USAPA was to make sure every pilot had an equal vote. Arbitration is for corporations. It is not for unions. Why do you think our current arbitrative system works so well for the COMPANY??? Fly now, grieve later???

Question, who makes up the union? It would be the pilots. The pilots remain liable for any damages. How that money gets collected and distributed is a good question but that can be overcome.

The pilots CAN NEVER be held personally liable for USAPA's infractions. You tried that in state court, remember??? Pilots only VOTE!!! Sue Seham if you wish. You'll get farther suing republicans for the poor economy. That CANNOT be overcome.

If the east pilots pick up your ball and go home the award stays. Your protection goes, your grievances go, your pension investigation goes, the only thing you are left with is LOA 93. I think that the PHX domicile might put together a nice little working group to air grievances and maybe even work on a new contract. Separate ops and all we are in section 6. No union no one to tell us what we can and can not do.

Not so fast. USAPA is WEST pilots too!! Protection, grievances, pension ALL GO....AGREED! But YOU can't "pick and choose" as you so aptley put it. There IS no separate ops. There are only.....PILOTS!!! No "separate contract", no "separate ops", no "section 6", no USAPA!!! No UNION!!! Guess what...no NOTHING!!! (Hey, kind of like...NOW!!! 5 years and no contract!)

But you are SPOT ON on your last statement: "NO UNION NO ONE TO TELL US WHAT WE CAN DO AND CANNOT DO!"

The union can't TELL either of us what to do or NOT do now. It can only recommend. The union, you, NOR the Judge can tell any of us whether or not they can picket or cross the picket line.

Happy trails!!!

Enjoy your dream.

 

[OTTER574]

No USAPA, no union.

As I said before, becareful what you wish for.

You sued USAPA. Not the company. Go ahead and strike for what you want and see what happens.

Looking forward to that pay raise!!! 5 years and counting.

This is getting really funny.

Does AOL or any other group/orginzation have the right to force the company to fire an employee for non payment of union dues via section 29? Of course not.

Does usapa, current cba for usairways pilots, have the right to force the company to fire an employee for non payment of union dues via section 29? The answer is YES and they've attempted this MANY TIMES and still do to this day, thanks to cleary/streble/usapa brain trust. It continues as we speak and the usapa record speaks volumes.

In the USA, unions have certain rights but when unions evoke these rights you/union must also abide by FEDERAL LAW. DFR (duty fair representation) comes to mind.

 

[HogDriver]

Fellow Pilots (East and West)...I have been lurking off and on this topic for a long while. I am amazed at some of the venom, selfishness and unprofessional back and forth from both sides. I look for information and opinions about our situation and to find some understanding, but a reality check may be in order here for those that just seem to revel in the fight. First I am an east pilot who will most be affected by Nic., in that due to a history of management shell-games and broken promises ended up in the catagory of furloughed when the nic list came out. I was not furloughed but was flying as Capt on the 170 at the imaginary division of US Air known as Mid-Alantic. Prior to that I flew for the same company since Jan 1989 reaching the position of Int'l F/O and seniority for a Jr. Capt seat before a one year real furlough in 2003 (where I spent the year in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq...killing the ones who started the destruction of our careers in the first place).

I think the common observer would look at how things shook out from the nic and see that when enforced the fact that I am below a 2005 hire (now on the street) makes no sense, but...thanks to changing standards for merging from ALPA....and a process where an arbitrater can read the tea leaves how he sees as fair...we find ourselves with that reality. My west fellow pilots can not blame a group of pilots who have sacrificed and given much to preserve the airline over the years...you know the story...for trying to right what we saw as a total injustice. I believe the vote to dump ALPA and begin USAPA had much to do with that idea...but it was not the whole story. Many of us pin wearing, card carring ALPA pilots began to see ALPA not as a union but a loose association of self-interest groups, and US Air was at the bottom of the pecking order. ALPA was more interested in preserving the mothership than forwarding our careers. A long history from no vision as to how to change with de-regulation, to allowing small jets to be flown off scope, to whistling the day away as US pilots pension was destroyed to name a few reasons that the Nic came to be the final...not only straw. My fellow west pilots seem to think we in the east only voted in USAPA to take from them. Not true. Never was. I and the majority of my fellow easties want to protect your seats and careers...we want no advantage....or jumps.

I also see the arguments from the west as having merit. DOH, though the standard we all came into this career with, is not the end all answer. I don't know all the details of how our east case went to Mr. Nic, but it seems straight DOH was not going to cut it. So now USAPA trys a different approach with fences to protect west flying....is it perfect...nope...fair??? You tell me what the hell is fair in this business. I can't blame west crews from arguing " we won binding arbitration...lets get this done!" because you did win. Is that fair? See above comment.

So...now we have west guys talking about " see you when your pulling my gear on the way to Shannon"...and east guys saying....never gonna accept the nic....seperate ops!...etc. Wow...I thought we were professionals. Highly screened...trained...type A guys and gals admired for our skills and daring. Our profession has been attacked and degraded by outside forces....and now we are doing the same from inside. It has to stop. Think before you type. The pilot you are getting into a school yard fight with is just like you...trying to make a good living for them and their family...doing the best to fly safe from a to b...dealing with second rate leadership and trying to make a good career. He/she also happens to work with you at the same operation. We are a team...like it or not. Seperate ops are not forever.

Which brings us to now. The 9th Circuit will soon rule...I hope...one way or the other. I have been talking to my fellow east pilots and reps making known my opinon that whatever the out come...it ends here. No more appeals...no more fees...no more freakin lawyers. If the Nic dies then I believe USAPA will be allowed to use DOH with fences as a part of our contract. Is it perfect?....fair?...again, see above. If the Nic stands...then let's get on with getting the contract settled.

A possible solution to the damage done by Nic to pilots like myself who find us once again at the very bottom of a seniority list after 20+ years would be to explore longevity based pay. It has merits even without the Nic. Other carriers use it...check out UPS where senior pilots fly domestic 727's and are home every night while Jr pilots fly Int'l 747. It takes away seat lust...training is reduced...you bid lifestyle not equipment. We always negotiate pay starting at the top with wide-body being holy grail. News flash...we don't have enough wide-bodies to go around here at US. Leveling and balancing the pay based on longevity only IS fair...and very doable. I know I don't want to be flying the Atlantic tracks at 65. Puts you in an early grave.

I hope my fellow pilots take what I write here to heart. The battle has been going on too long. I am no wimp and do not shy away from fights...but my fight is with a terrible leadership at our company who uses circumstance to gain at our expense...who does not respect my years of service...who ignores my skills until it suits them to praise a water landing for their own gain. The battle is not against fellow pilots. USAPA is, like it or not, OUR union right now. It will be what we make of it. You want change...get involved. I am glad to see 1000 pilots now a part of the union from the west. I expect great things from that group...to make a better career for all of us. I also believe we are better suited with an in-house union vs. ALPA.

I seek out any and all pilots to talk...exchange ideas...argue points. Let's knock-off the chicken%^&* and get down to business. Nic or not.

First beer's on me....

 

[luvn737s]

If USAPA came out and said they were abandoning the lawsuits against the west and convenening a constitutional convention so that west pilots could have input into the rules of the union, your dream of pilot unity would be well under way.

The west pilots do not want to be steamrolled. They want the arbitration to be honored, just as they would have had to if Nicolau had decided on DOH.

The fence mending must begin with USAPA, as it reflects the mindset of the pilots who, we are asked to believe, control it. When that occurs, then trust can begin to build. One honored committment at a time.

 

[luvn737s]

And this is why USAPA will be decertified in a "straw man" ballot and you'll get nothing.

PLEASE bring the ballot!

 

[luvn737s]

The East Furloughed Pilot Medical Insurance Assessment is another example of how USAPA can take a good idea and screw it into the ground. For instance, why not expand eligibility to ALL pilots, even if they were not USAPA members at the time the assessment was started? Petty.

Then, where is the accounting that shows if ANY of the money collected is actually going to pilots and what the balance of the account is? Are the pilots merely floating a slush fund for Cleary and Co.? How is the money invested? Are there better ways to fund such an endevour?

And why does USAPA continue to deny the pilots a webboard where such questions can be posed and responded to efficiently, rather than 1800 pilots asking the same question in private to their reps?

Please, please, bring the ballot and finally rid ourselves of this long union nightmare.

 

[OTTER574]

Fellow Pilots (East and West)...I have been lurking off and on this topic for a long while. I am amazed at some of the venom, selfishness and unprofessional back and forth from both sides. I look for information and opinions about our situation and to find some understanding, but a reality check may be in order here for those that just seem to revel in the fight. First I am an east pilot who will most be affected by Nic., in that due to a history of management shell-games and broken promises ended up in the catagory of furloughed when the nic list came out. I was not furloughed but was flying as Capt on the 170 at the imaginary division of US Air known as Mid-Alantic. Prior to that I flew for the same company since Jan 1989 reaching the position of Int'l F/O and seniority for a Jr. Capt seat before a one year real furlough in 2003 ( where I spent the year in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq...killing the ones who started the destruction of our careers in the first place).

I think the common observer would look at how things shook out from the nic and see that when enforced the fact that I am below a 2005 hire (now on the street) makes no sense, but...thanks to changing standards for merging from ALPA....and a process where an arbitrater can read the tea leaves how he sees as fair...we find ourselves with that reality. My west fellow pilots can not blame a group of pilots who have sacrificed and given much to preserve the airline over the years...you know the story...for trying to right what we saw as a total injustice. I believe the vote to dump ALPA and begin USAPA had much to do with that idea...but it was not the whole story. Many of us pin wearing, card carring ALPA pilots began to see ALPA not as a union but a loose association of self-interest groups, and US Air was at the bottom of the pecking order. ALPA was more interested in preserving the mothership than forwarding our careers. A long history from no vision as to how to change with de-regulation, to allowing small jets to be flown off scope, to whistling the day away as US pilots pension was destroyed to name a few reasons that the Nic came to be the final...not only straw. My fellow west pilots seem to think we in the east only voted in USAPA to take from them. Not true. Never was. I and the majority of my fellow easties want to protect your seats and careers...we want no advantage....or jumps.

I also see the arguments from the west as having merit. DOH, though the standard we all came into this career with, is not the end all answer. I don't know all the details of how our east case went to Mr. Nic, but it seems straight DOH was not going to cut it. So now USAPA trys a different approach with fences to protect west flying....is it perfect...nope...fair??? You tell me what the hell is fair in this business. I can't blame west crews from arguing " we won binding arbitration...lets get this done!" because you did win. Is that fair? See above comment.

So...now we have west guys talking about " see you when your pulling my gear on the way to Shannon"...and east guys saying....never gonna accept the nic....seperate ops!...etc. Wow...I thought we were profesionals. Highly screened...trained...type A guys and gals admired for our skills and daring. Our profession has been attacked and degraded by outside forces....and now we are doing the same from inside. It has to stop. Think before you type. The pilot you are getting into a school yard fight with is just like you...trying to make a good living for them and their family...doing the best to fly safe from a to b...dealing with second rate leadership and trying to make a good career. He/she also happens to work with you at the same operation. We are a team...like it or not. Seperate ops are not forever.

Which brings us to now. The 9th Circuit will soon rule...I hope...one way or the other. I have been talking to my fellow east pilots and reps making known my opinon that whatevre the out come...it ends here. No more appeals...no more fees...no more freakin lawyers. If the Nic dies then I believe USAPA will be allowed to use DOH with fences as a part of our contract. Is it perfect?....fair?...again, see above. If the Nic stands...then let's get on with getting the contract settled.

A possible solution to the damage done by Nic to pilots like myself who find us once again at the very bottom of a seniority list after 20+ years would be to explore longevity based pay. It has merits even without the Nic. Other carriers use it...check out UPS where senior pilots fly domestic 727's and are home every night while Jr pilots fly Int'l 747. It takes away seat lust...training is reduced...you bid lifestyle not equipment. We always negotiate pay starting at the top with wide-body being holy grail. News flash...we don't have enough wide-bodies to go around here at US. Leveling and balancing the pay based on longevity only IS fair...and very doable. I know I don't want to be flying the atlantic tracks at 65. Puts you in an early grave.

I hope my fellow pilots take what I write here to heart. The battle has been going on too long. I am no wimp and do not shy away from fights...but my fight is with a terrible leadership at our company who uses circumstance to gain at our expense...who does not respect my years of service...who ignores my skills until it suits them to praise a water landing for their own gain. The battle is not against fellow pilots. USAPA is, like it or not, OUR union right now. It will be what we make of it. You want change...get involved. I am glad to see 1000 pilots now a part of th union from the west. I expect great things from that group...to make a better career for all of us. I also believe we are better suited with an in-house union vs. ALPA.

I seek out any and all pilots to talk...exchange ideas...argue points. Let's knock-off the chicken%^&* and get down to business. Nic or not.

First beer's on me....

Wow, I'm not going to debate with you about all that you stated. Honestly, I see a lot of problems with what you posted and propose. It's good to debate but we need to set some ground rules first. The NIC list is done. A federal court of law states that there is no wiggle room here via the permanent injunction.

If grown adults don't want to abide by a final and binding arbitration, whats next..lee seham/founders of usapa and their corrupt/illegal views on this?

Do us all a favor, help change usapa officers, drop the rico appeal/lawsuit, fire lee seham and we can move on to a better contract.

Sorry, there's no stockholm syndrome here, beer is fine but I'm out to collect.

 

[Piedmont1984]

HogDriver

Very good post - and I agree. You said it in a nutshell....or maybe a conch shell.

 

[luvthe9]

Wow, I'm not going to debate with you about all that you stated. Honestly, I see a lot of problems with what you posted and propose. It's good to debate but we need to set some ground rules first. The NIC list is done. A federal court of law states that there is no wiggle room here via the permanent injunction.

If grown adults don't want to abide by a final and binding arbitration, whats next..lee seham/founders of usapa and their corrupt/illegal views on this?

Do us all a favor, change usapa officers, drop the rico appeal/lawsuit, fire lee seham and we can move on to a better contract.

Sorry, there's no stockholm syndrome here, beer is fine but I'm out to collect.

Either way, sounds like the 9th is going to send this back to another trial. Get ready again.

 

[luvthe9]

PLEASE bring the ballot!

There is going to be another trial. Different outcome than everyone expected. Announcement coming soon.

 

[cleardirect]

Either way, sounds like the 9th is going to send this back to another trial. Get ready again.

What possible evidence do you have that makes you think that?

The ninth denied that stay and the emergency stay. If they were going to remand why would they not uphold the stay to stop any further damage to the union and the pilots?

They denied the stay leaving it in place. At the oral arguments you heard how little concern the judges had over the injunction.

Now what makes you think the ninth is going to send it back to trial? The ninth has ruled against usapa every time so far.

 

[cleardirect]

There is going to be another trial. Different outcome than everyone expected. Announcement coming soon.

The next trial is going to be for damages against usapa in the Addington case. The trial after that is going to be for damages against usapa in the RICO case.


We all know what to expect the outcome of those to be.