US Pilots labor thread 5/3-

[Metroyet]

Right. So the group that has been proven to be correct by the courts and who are clearly the injured party in this protracted battle should stop seeking the justice that is legitimately and rightfully theirs in exchange for peace? I can’t think of any examples in history where the injured party surrendered and ceased fighting with the guilty, immoral and hedonistic party that attacked them and that such a surrender resulted in a benefit to the injured party. Please enlighten us with examples of why this is a good strategy. Did it work out for the French in WWII? Has “land for peace” ever worked in Israel? Personally I don’t recommend giving those who have a penchant for injuring the innocent more opportunities and latitude to do it again.

Yep. You don't negotiate with Terrorists.

 

[Ames]

Fellow Pilots (East and West)...I have been lurking off and on this topic for a long while. I am amazed at some of the venom, selfishness and unprofessional back and forth from both sides. I look for information and opinions about our situation and to find some understanding, but a reality check may be in order here for those that just seem to revel in the fight. First I am an east pilot who will most be affected by Nic., in that due to a history of management shell-games and broken promises ended up in the catagory of furloughed when the nic list came out. I was not furloughed but was flying as Capt on the 170 at the imaginary division of US Air known as Mid-Alantic. Prior to that I flew for the same company since Jan 1989 reaching the position of Int'l F/O and seniority for a Jr. Capt seat before a one year real furlough in 2003 (where I spent the year in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq...killing the ones who started the destruction of our careers in the first place).

I think the common observer would look at how things shook out from the nic and see that when enforced the fact that I am below a 2005 hire (now on the street) makes no sense, but...thanks to changing standards for merging from ALPA....and a process where an arbitrater can read the tea leaves how he sees as fair...we find ourselves with that reality. My west fellow pilots can not blame a group of pilots who have sacrificed and given much to preserve the airline over the years...you know the story...for trying to right what we saw as a total injustice. I believe the vote to dump ALPA and begin USAPA had much to do with that idea...but it was not the whole story. Many of us pin wearing, card carring ALPA pilots began to see ALPA not as a union but a loose association of self-interest groups, and US Air was at the bottom of the pecking order. ALPA was more interested in preserving the mothership than forwarding our careers. A long history from no vision as to how to change with de-regulation, to allowing small jets to be flown off scope, to whistling the day away as US pilots pension was destroyed to name a few reasons that the Nic came to be the final...not only straw. My fellow west pilots seem to think we in the east only voted in USAPA to take from them. Not true. Never was. I and the majority of my fellow easties want to protect your seats and careers...we want no advantage....or jumps.

I also see the arguments from the west as having merit. DOH, though the standard we all came into this career with, is not the end all answer. I don't know all the details of how our east case went to Mr. Nic, but it seems straight DOH was not going to cut it. So now USAPA trys a different approach with fences to protect west flying....is it perfect...nope...fair??? You tell me what the hell is fair in this business. I can't blame west crews from arguing " we won binding arbitration...lets get this done!" because you did win. Is that fair? See above comment.

So...now we have west guys talking about " see you when your pulling my gear on the way to Shannon"...and east guys saying....never gonna accept the nic....seperate ops!...etc. Wow...I thought we were professionals. Highly screened...trained...type A guys and gals admired for our skills and daring. Our profession has been attacked and degraded by outside forces....and now we are doing the same from inside. It has to stop. Think before you type. The pilot you are getting into a school yard fight with is just like you...trying to make a good living for them and their family...doing the best to fly safe from a to b...dealing with second rate leadership and trying to make a good career. He/she also happens to work with you at the same operation. We are a team...like it or not. Seperate ops are not forever.

Which brings us to now. The 9th Circuit will soon rule...I hope...one way or the other. I have been talking to my fellow east pilots and reps making known my opinon that whatever the out come...it ends here. No more appeals...no more fees...no more freakin lawyers. If the Nic dies then I believe USAPA will be allowed to use DOH with fences as a part of our contract. Is it perfect?....fair?...again, see above. If the Nic stands...then let's get on with getting the contract settled.

A possible solution to the damage done by Nic to pilots like myself who find us once again at the very bottom of a seniority list after 20+ years would be to explore longevity based pay. It has merits even without the Nic. Other carriers use it...check out UPS where senior pilots fly domestic 727's and are home every night while Jr pilots fly Int'l 747. It takes away seat lust...training is reduced...you bid lifestyle not equipment. We always negotiate pay starting at the top with wide-body being holy grail. News flash...we don't have enough wide-bodies to go around here at US. Leveling and balancing the pay based on longevity only IS fair...and very doable. I know I don't want to be flying the Atlantic tracks at 65. Puts you in an early grave.

I hope my fellow pilots take what I write here to heart. The battle has been going on too long. I am no wimp and do not shy away from fights...but my fight is with a terrible leadership at our company who uses circumstance to gain at our expense...who does not respect my years of service...who ignores my skills until it suits them to praise a water landing for their own gain. The battle is not against fellow pilots. USAPA is, like it or not, OUR union right now. It will be what we make of it. You want change...get involved. I am glad to see 1000 pilots now a part of the union from the west. I expect great things from that group...to make a better career for all of us. I also believe we are better suited with an in-house union vs. ALPA.

I seek out any and all pilots to talk...exchange ideas...argue points. Let's knock-off the chicken%^&* and get down to business. Nic or not.

First beer's on me....

Hogdriver, as a military man you should understand the importance of following a process and honoring the results. Alpa merger policy was the process, along with an arbitration. Enough said.

Your position on the Nicolau list is below a 2005 hire at AWA who, as you stated, is no longer working. He was working mainline when the merger happened, you were not. The fact that he is no longer working while those who were on furlough then is a blatant injustice.

I agree that the east pilots have made more than their share of sacrafices over the past twenty years but it is not up to the AWA pilots to make it right for them. We were part of a growing and profitable company in 2005 while the east pilots had very little hope of being employed in 2006. Now we have pilots on furlough while east pilots enjoy bringing a paycheck home to their families.

When you were hired is irrelevant in a merger, especially if you were not working at the time. Your position on the seniority list is all that matters and to be compared to the position of a pilot on the other carrier's list, the relative position of each pilot is the only fair way to do so. All pilots actively working mainline at the time of the merger are within a few % points of their relative position on the Nic list vis a vis their original carrier's list. - with the clear exception of the top 517 AWA pilots.

With the exception of the few knuckleheads who throw that "gear up" kind of comment I believe the west pilots have more than taken the high road in this cluster#$%^. We are paying for justice out of our own pockets all the while paying the "union" for perpetuating injustice.

I agree that we must move on and believe that we can only do so once the court system has finally spoken. That's what we're all waiting for.

 

[OTTER574]

Either way, sounds like the 9th is going to send this back to another trial. Get ready again.

Funny you mention this, just listened to the audio tape from the 9th a few minutes ago. Seems I get more each time I listen. The first few minutes of audio and the last 3-5 minutes audio are going to be pretty much how you can sum up this case and how it will proceed from the 9th circuit court of appeals. Judge Bybee in the beginning is a classic usapa failure and lead Judge Graber in the end, how do I say this..is lee seham's "custer's last stand."

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/view_subpage.php?pk_id=0000004583


Federal Judge Neil V. Wake will be affirmed.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Kudos to HogDriver. For my fellow westies, I would say no sense in busting him for minor details, he's got it right. Sure in a perfect world alot of stuff wouldn't have happened, but last time I checked it aint a perfect world.

HogDriver's post has my respect, and I don't doubt for a second that if I knew him, he as a person would too.

 

[Metroyet]

I seek out any and all pilots to talk...exchange ideas...argue points. Let's knock-off the chicken%^&* and get down to business. Nic or not.

First beer's on me....

Great Post. Here's the problem you're not addressing. USAPA, with the benefit of hindsight, engineered the C&BL to permanently disenfranchise the West. It's hardly a level playing field...that was by design and it was proven to be Illegal. You sound like a rational guy, the problem is you and guys like you are not running this fake union, the Narcissistic Hardliners that absolutely refuse to allow any fwd movement are running this crazy trainwreck. They have NO intention to actually represent the best interests of ALL US Airways pilots. You're asking what the definition of "fair" is in this business. Actually, there is a universally accepted answer to that question. It's call the Arbitrators Ruling. That's why it's pre-agreed that his word is to be final and binding. Nic. is and the other neutrals are totally unemotional about combining lists. You all picked Nic. and trusted that he would come to a defend-able, articulated, reasoned conclusion. He did. Where in this process is this ALPA's fault? Binding arbitration happens hundreds of times a day in all forms of business. It'd be great to knock off the chicken&^&%$ and "get down to business" but what "business" is there to get down to? USAPA is the union, there is no "west" any more.

There is only one party to this...the pilots of US Airways. USAPA screwed the pooch big time when they went for single carrier status. That evaporated any chance to negotiate another deal because you need TWO parties to negotiate with. They eliminated the smaller one thinking that they'll simply hide behind a trumped up, pre-loaded Constitution and hide behind their version of US Labor Law. Against all advice, (except $eham) they pressed fwd. They violated the Law, the West still has rights, and there is no other mechanism in existence to modify the Nic. Award. AOL isn't a competing labor union. They're a vehicle to organize and finance the defense of the Injured West pilot. They have ZERO power to negotiate any settlement with USAPA. If they did, another group of West pilots could Sue AOL. It's Nic. or nothing. Single Carrier status cemented that in stone. Most of the Vocal Easties here are voting for Nothing. I don't see the other 5000 pilots and their families going along with that. Bottom line, if you want to move fwd. USAPA leadership needs to hit the road. They're Caustic, Immature, Vindictive, Selfish, Narcissistic, incompetent, self aggrandizing, delusional sociopaths. Not quite the combo for a successfully run Labor Union.

Until the full frontal assault on the West from the East stops, you're not going to see any changes. The West holds the high ground, and all the legal cards. A decent contract will pass. Like you, I feel that once the 9th crushes the DOH cram down for good, this thing will really be over and the Rodents that run this fake union will start to jump ship to save face...perhaps the real work of a real union that actually represents ALL the pilots can move fwd. Change comes from the top, and the top of this ugly mountain of SH** union is rotten to the core.

Hopefully rational people such as yourself can help to turn this around.

 

[East Hole]

Let's see. The west has filed suit once so far. Not really all the time. We won that suit because usapa did not represent the west fairly. I guess you would have prefered that the west just sit back and except unfairness.

Now the other suit was filed by usapa against west pilots. Would you consider one suit all the time also? What was the outcome of that suit? Yep dismissed with prejudice, meaning that usapa lost.

So if you truly would like to move forward together it is up to usapa to drop all of the law suits and concentrate on leading instead of spending money and wasting time on lawyers.

usapa has lost these two suit but have appealed. That was usapas choice. It should be the pilots choice to continue to the SCOTUS. Willing to agree not to go to SCOTUS when usapa loses in the ninth to move forward together?

Do you think the East should just sit back and except unfairness. USAPA represents the east fairly . Which happens to be the majority. Thats the way things should work!!!!!!!

 

[phasersonstun2]

THE BICYCLE METAPHOR​

In a bicycle race featuring all of the major airlines, it seems like there are two USAPA bicycles... one labeled east and the other west. The USAPA bikes are riding parallel to each other but have managed to tangle their handlebars and as a result are riding along a jagged path and are all but out of the race.

The other cyclists are now ahead and out of sight.

 

[OTTER574]

Great Post. Here's the problem you're not addressing. USAPA, with the benefit of hindsight, engineered the C&BL to permanently disenfranchise the West. It's hardly a level playing field...that was by design and it was proven to be Illegal. You sound like a rational guy, the problem is you and guys like you are not running this fake union, the Narcissistic Hardliners that absolutely refuse to allow any fwd movement are running this crazy trainwreck. They have NO intention to actually represent the best interests of ALL US Airways pilots. You're asking what the definition of "fair" is in this business. Actually, there is a universally accepted answer to that question. It's call the Arbitrators Ruling. That's why it's pre-agreed that his word is to be final and binding. Nic. is and the other neutrals are totally unemotional about combining lists. You all picked Nic. and trusted that he would come to a defend-able, articulated, reasoned conclusion. He did. Where in this process is this ALPA's fault? Binding arbitration happens hundreds of times a day in all forms of business. It'd be great to knock off the chicken&^&%$ and "get down to business" but what "business" is there to get down to? USAPA is the union, there is no "west" any more.

There is only one party to this...the pilots of US Airways. USAPA screwed the pooch big time when they went for single carrier status. That evaporated any chance to negotiate another deal because you need TWO parties to negotiate with. They eliminated the smaller one thinking that they'll simply hide behind a trumped up, pre-loaded Constitution and hide behind their version of US Labor Law. Against all advice, (except $eham) they pressed fwd. They violated the Law, the West still has rights, and there is no other mechanism in existence to modify the Nic. Award. AOL isn't a competing labor union. They're a vehicle to organize and finance the defense of the Injured West pilot. They have ZERO power to negotiate any settlement with USAPA. If they did, another group of West pilots could Sue AOL. It's Nic. or nothing. Single Carrier status cemented that in stone. Most of the Vocal Easties here are voting for Nothing. I don't see the other 5000 pilots and their families going along with that. Bottom line, if you want to move fwd. USAPA leadership needs to hit the road. They're Caustic, Immature, Vindictive, Selfish, Narcissistic, incompetent, self aggrandizing, delusional sociopaths. Not quite the combo for a successfully run Labor Union.

Until the full frontal assault on the West from the East stops, you're not going to see any changes. The West holds the high ground, and all the legal cards. A decent contract will pass. Like you, I feel that once the 9th crushes the DOH cram down for good, this thing will really be over and the Rodents that run this fake union will start to jump ship to save face...perhaps the real work of a real union that actually represents ALL the pilots can move fwd. Change comes from the top, and the top of this ugly mountain of SH** union is rotten to the core.

Hopefully rational people such as yourself can help to turn this around.

Totally Agree

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Totally Agree

Check your paycheck, in 2007, WE ARE A WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY, word up we can be sold off at any time, and we will when AMERICAN COMES CALLING( they won't make the same mistake as TWAY!) , or SWA out BIDS THEM FOR USEAST, we took the risk tried the cramdown and we WILL LOSE! MM JUST AS FREUND PREDICTED!

 

[luvn737s]

I'd like to hear Luvthe9's insight into both the 9th's impending ruling (which he appears to be the expert) and flamebaiting (ditto).

 

[OTTER574]

Check your paycheck, in 2007, WE ARE A WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY, word up we can be sold off at any time, and we will when AMERICAN COMES CALLING( they won't make the same mistake as TWAY!) , or SWA out BIDS THEM FOR USEAST, we took the risk tried the cramdown and we WILL LOSE! MM JUST AS FREUND PREDICTED!

Absolutely the dumbest post/reply yet. Please check out ALK stock today? AMR has no interest in the usair clustercl"f"uck.

 

[hp_fa]

... and flamebaiting.

Earlier today I had a long response to a post a couple of pages ago and I decided to ** not ** hit the "Add Reply" button. It wasn't that my post was likely to be objectionable but merely that I felt like the poster was looking to get into a flame war, which I am working really hard to avoid pending a decision from the 9th. I don't want to be in a cornfield when that decision arrives.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Rarlier today I had a long response to a post a couple of pages ago and I decided to ** not ** hit the "Add Reply" button. It wasn't that my post was likely to be objectionable but merely that I felt like the poster was looking to get into a flame war, which I am working really hard to avoid pending a decision from the 9th. I don't want to be in a cornfield when that decision arrives.

Amen to that, not taking the bait.

Hoping for an answer this week...

 

[nic4us]

......the West has to give up on the Nic and stop suing thier union all the time.........

Do you actually work at LCC, or do you just make this stuff up as you go?

First fact, it was the east mec that fired the first lawsuit shot when they sued the West mec in district court in Washington d.c. over the Nic.

Second fact, usapa fired the next lawsuit, when they filed the cactus 18 lawsuit in federal court in North Carolina. Their questionable motive may have been a pre-emptive strike against awappa to avoid the coming DFR suit, by tying up West monies.

Third fact, AOL filed the third suit, and won, because the convicts at the fake union were guilty.

Fourth fact, usapa filed the appeal and prolonged this mess.

Fifth fact, it is the idiots at the fake union who keep putting themselves in harms way by their illegal activity and sometimes just plain stupid behavior.

Sixth fact,.....oh...I better stop there and heed HP-FA's advice...do not want to miss all the fireworks when the 9th rules.

 

[cleardirect]

Check your paycheck, in 2007, WE ARE A WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY, word up we can be sold off at any time, and we will when AMERICAN COMES CALLING( they won't make the same mistake as TWAY!) , or SWA out BIDS THEM FOR USEAST, we took the risk tried the cramdown and we WILL LOSE! MM JUST AS FREUND PREDICTED!

Check your calender. It is 2010.