US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[nic4us]

Further, it is the East members who will have to decide how to proceed as they are the parties (defendants) considering an appeal...
At best, USAPA should consider polling ALL MEMBERS CURRENTLY IN GOOD STANDING in this matter. Polling the West pilots who are not currently members in good standing, AND who were plaintiffs is illogical....(the plaintiffs position is established already)
Hope that helps.

Agree completely, Also, I believe the West members in good standing have already voiced their position through a PHX domicile update, but as you point out they are plaintiffs and it is a logical conclusion what their position will be.

I just want to emphasize that a polling of the members should take place before USAPA persues a spring loaded response.

 

[cleardirect]

Simmer down Tiger.

Nobody is talking about modifying the Nic...did I say that? What I DID say, quite correctly, I suspect, is that you will probably never get to see it.

Read the transcripts if you need to, Wake said the same thing, and before you start talking about contempt, Wake addressed that too....there would be none.

That goes for you too, clearedirect.

Typical. You are taking one sentence from one day and expanding it into something that it is not.

The judge’s comment was made on Friday. That was supposed to be the remedy phrase. But Seham messed around with jury instruction for most of the day. The remedy was not completed. They had to come back on Wednesday to complete that portion. For some reason that part of the transcripts are not posted from the rest of the day only the verdict part.

You really need to understand the context and entirety of the judge’s comment. The plaintiffs asked for help in getting usapa to comply if they decided to delay or play games in getting a contract. The judge quite clearly stated that he could not stop something that may happen in the future. He also added that if usapa did do that there were contempt and damages that he could bring in.

So your comment about “contempt, Wake addressed that too…there will be none.â€￾ He had no way to know that because it is a possible future event. What he is going to craft for a remedy will try and eliminate the possibility of usapa doing anything that would put them in contempt but that does not mean that this leadership is not so stupid as to try.

As far as your opinion of never seeing the Nic. The only way that will happen is if usapa never brings a contract to vote or never gets a contract passed for the rest of our careers. I suspect that many pilots and the company might have something to say about that. In addition they would have now violated or be in contempt of the judge’s order. Kind of negates your NEVER statements.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Nah, usapa would never show contempt, I refuse to believe it. h34r:

 

[hp_fa]

Breaking away from the Addington case for a second, some of you may find the linked article interesting. Link

 

[EastUS]

Do you think the pilots can win long-term, by simply not losing?

That seems rather an odd question..at least as phrased. Much will happen in the world around us during the course of the appeals process. What any higher court will rule is entirely unknown, and equally, entirely worth seeing.

The west's continually asserted and utterly fantastic notions of gaining some great and quickly had contract...if only the east swallows the nic...are completely absurd, and in no way grown in any even slightly viable manure. A contract, imo, is most likely at least two years away. Seriously; What's your assumed time table for obtaining this supposed great contract?...especially if it contains nic? Now; what's the date on which LOA93 can be disputed as per pay issues? What's your assumed timing for the appeals process from Addington? What's your placing of odds on the eventual outcome there? No one knows what will come of that.

Finally; What's the permanent cost to the east, versus ANY actual benefits whatsoever, if they accept the glorious nic at this time?

For me = The whole decision is very easy, since this is a matter of principle to me, coupled with the earnest desire to NOT see my fellows hosed over....some of whom I've flown with since before some of your bunch got out of grade school...and would yet, become "senior" to them........

What would you honestly do if you were currently in the east's shoes? (said slightly tongue in cheek..since getting into said shoes is the entire apparent purpose of the Nic)

 

[EastUS]

I think the point of my post was that USAPA should give voice to their pilots through referrendum whether or not to continue needless and fruitless appeals, or to work diligently at a better contract.

Why not work on a better contract whole keeping the west from invading east positions in the meanwhile? Any contract proposal must be tested by membership voting. As for "fruitless appeals"? = I guess we'll all have to wait and see. "Sorry" if that doesn't suit your personal agendas out there...but not terribly sorry in truth. The whole west bit's been about "due process" and "the rule of law"...so?...What's changed? Is due process only acceptable when it suits your purposes?

 

[john john]

Breaking away from the Addington case for a second, some of you may find the linked article interesting. Link

Selling paint at Home Depot can be more lucrative than flying a commercial airplane.

Her pay wasn't the only part of the crash narrative that raised warning flags for some. Testimony also described the captain's prior failings on inspection flights and Shaw's overnight "red-eye" commute to work.

Pay at express has always always always been a lot less then non-express airlines
The number of express flights and trip length has double in pass 15 years there is no movement form low pay to higher pay the express airlines are booming and the majors are shrinking. Noting has change but the chances of you being on an express flight is more likely
http://www.raa.org/statistics/regionalairlinecompanies.html
http://www.raa.org/statistics/regionalairlineservice.html



15,000 regional airline flights every day, more than one of every five domestic airline passengers now travel on regionals. Operating more than 2,700 aircraft, the regional fleet comprises about nearly 40 percent of the US commercial passenger fleet. , regional

 

[767one]

Since you're a newbie to this forum I'll cut you some slack this once. Can you say 'scapegoat'? The East's problems aren't ALPA. Everyone blames their union when things don't go how you want but the fact is Prater bent over backwards trying to appease the AAA MEC. Your problems stem from your in-house leadership and the incompetence of the USAPA leadership only confirms that.

I'm not actually defending ALPA. I'm a member of a class-action DFR suit against them from the TWA/AA debacle. We TWA'ers would've loved to have had the opportunity to have a neutral arbitrator decide our integration which is one reason why I'm a stanch supporter of ALPA Merger Policy. (Being dissappointed with the outcome does not mean the policy is flawed or it wasn't followed.)

What has USAPA done for you so far? I mean really, what tangible benefits? Contract negotiations are going nowhere (why? No leverage!). USAPA broke US labor law (that's what DFR is). And your leader is "supremely confident" of winning on appeal (ask any lawyer how smart saying that is). Plus he insulted Judge Wake while a remedy ruling is still pending. Is Mr. Cleary qualified to lead us and if not what are you going to do about it?

You need to stop using ALPA as a scapegoat for the East's internal problems. It's not your fault that your career at USAir has been crappy and the bankrupcies and incompetent management meant bad things no matter which union you had.

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the slack . Actually compared to many at this airline I have had it fairly easy. I took all my hits early in my career. I was number last from 73 to 78 and furloughed most of that time period. I consider myself lucky to have checked out in 12.5 years on the BAC111 and have only spent a little less than half of my 36 years as a reserve.

As for what usapa has done for me...... it is more a matter of what they have not done, they have not yet given anything away, and they have not yet become a bloated bureaucracy with a bunch of fellow pilots trying to make a career of being alpa officers or feathering their nests with our feathers! A national union would make sense today only if we are talking national seniority list. I will agree that there are plenty of internal problems to go around but alpa is no longer the answer.
Regards

 

[cubfan]

Breaking away from the Addington case for a second, some of you may find the linked article interesting. Link

Thanks HP for the link, I have read similar articles expressing the same concerns surrounding the unfortunate events in Buffalo. What I find interesting is how the carriers SELL safety to the public after an accident. IF safety was their number one concern, no one with 200hrs fresh out the flight schools would be in those jets. They get what they pay for. The equipment is far more advanced these days. Most of us with those few hrs. would have performed the same way back in the day. The major airlines have the safety record they do because of the experience they have hired in the past. If pay and working conditions continue to dwindle as they have over time, then you could possibly see that on the major side as well. MGT. is far to quick to throw crews under the bus.

 

[hp_fa]

Thanks HP for the link

You're welcome. I figured it was pertinent to the overall labor discussion so I decided to at least add it to whatever folks want to discuss.

I think the most relevant part of that article to these boards, with mainline jet pilots here, is the potential issue of commuting into base immediately before flights. We should all know how government allows itself to be distracted from monetary issues by lobbyists waiving campaign checks, so the band-aid fix may be rules that pilots cannot commute into base and immediately fly without suitable rest. Of course that would be an absolute quagmire to actually enforce, but it may be the band-aid that gets legislated.

(Yes, I know she was only the co-pilot and the actions of the captain are far more suspect. But I suspect that his issues will be dealt with by the NTSB report and the FAA follow-up rather than legislation.)

 

[cubfan]

Sorry, I hit the enter button too fast. I just wanted to ADD that my post was not a EAST,WEST thing. In saying that, I think it best to put emotional feelings toward the NIC at bay, it will work it self out in time. We need for now to team together to talk about what WE ALL want in our new contract if WE ALL can. IF I vote NO it won't be based on a single issue

 

[hp_fa]

Why poll when Cleary has already decided upon the next course of action with his post-trial press release?

Choose an answer.

1. Because it is the right thing to do
2. Failure to do so may provide further fodder for future fun in Judge Wake's courtroom.
3. Voting about major issues was supposed to be a major plank in USAPA's campaign to replace ALPA
4. All of the above.
5. None of the above.

 

[boeingplt]

Choose an answer.

1. Because it is the right thing to do
2. Failure to do so may provide further fodder for future fun in Judge Wake's courtroom.
3. Voting about major issues was supposed to be a major plank in USAPA's campaign to replace ALPA
4. All of the above.
5. None of the above.

Poll, don't poll... anyone who thinks the resolve of the east is waning, suffers from the effects of the core problem that has existed since the award came out. Both sides have grossly underestimated the deep resolve of the other and overestimated the chances that a third party can fix our problem.

This issue will almost certainly be heard by the 9th circuit. The outcome - gentlemen place your bets - will only determine what comes next but it won't fix the problem. This will continue until the collective voting members of USAPA ratify an agreement that contains a defined seniority list. Nay sayers bark all you wish but the logic behind this assertion is plain.

This process simply must run its course before there is any chance of a solution which must come from within. When the time comes it will be up to some hairy- chested individuals - ladies, I apologize for the metaphor - to see the issue to resolution. Just my uneducated opinion.

BP

P.S. JJ, I know your out there. What say you????

 

[hp_fa]

Poll, don't poll... anyone who thinks the resolve of the east is waning, suffers from the effects of the core problem that has existed since the award came out. Both sides have grossly underestimated the deep resolve of the other and overestimated the chances that a third party can fix our problem.

If you believe that the resolve of the pilots is that strong, why not a poll to prove that is indeed the case?

The real problem is that the 9th Circuit can't solve what I suspect is the problem and that is how people think. Because neither it nor Judge Wake can compel people to think differently every single decision that comes from the BPR in connection with anything that touches upon Nicolau will be subject to second-guessing and potentially more litigation.

How long will it take for the members to decide that enough has been enough and that their actions are having real consequences in the form of a loss of dollars and cents into their wallets and purses? Are the next three years potentially down the tube if, as many posters seemingly claim, Mr. Cleary's course is set and he will not even attempt to meaningfully do anything as far as negotiate a contract that includes Nicolau? Do you for a minute think that the Company would now negotiate any contract that did not contain Nicolau after they accepted that list on 12/20/07?

 

[luvn737s]

Poll, don't poll... anyone who thinks the resolve of the east is waning, suffers from the effects of the core problem that has existed since the award came out. Both sides have grossly underestimated the deep resolve of the other and overestimated the chances that a third party can fix our problem.

"Resolve" to what end? Is this about advancing careers or protecting the ability to get one's way at any cost?