I feel threatened. The north guys have been swamped by changes in their flight procedures coming mostly to the Delta system. Wow, big surprise, this hasn't happened in any merger ever before. It is not like 5 years later we still have East pilots complaining about the Cactus call sign. If you think we have 1/1000th of the problems you guys have then you are kidding yourselves. By the way, our merger is over so I am not sure what I should be watching. Are they going to secede from the company?
US Pilots labor thread 4/17-
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I feel threatened. The north guys have been swamped by changes in their flight procedures coming mostly to the Delta system. Wow, big surprise, this hasn't happened in any merger ever before. It is not like 5 years later we still have East pilots complaining about the Cactus call sign. If you think we have 1/1000th of the problems you guys have then you are kidding yourselves. By the way, our merger is over so I am not sure what I should be watching. Are they going to secede from the company?
cleardirect
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Talk about coming off the party line and needing to talk to the spin masters.
The party line from the union that you love.
Is that a union is “allowed a wide range of reasonableness“. That “judge Wake is a biased desert judge“. “usapa can negotiate seniority like a crew meal“. “Majority rules”. “We are supremely confident that we are going to win“.
Now you want the west to propose a better solution. Where is all of your confidence that you are going to win in the district court, oops sorry appeal court? Why does the west need to propose anything? It is the east plots that hold the majority you don’t need us for anything right. Oh wait usapa already proposed a fix DOH with C&R that favor the east. How is that working out for you? The jury laughed at that proposal. Why do we need to do anything. You can just wait for the ninth to agree with Seham’s spectacular performance and get everything you want right.
One other little snag. Who on the west can propose anything? Can say the PHL reps make a deal for the entire union? Could the PHL and PHX reps sit down and work this out? How do you propose that we not violate a federal injunction by negotiating something other that the arbitrated award?
You guys keep coming back to the same answers but it is not and can not happen. You will never get out of the Nicolau award usapa made sure of that, you know the union that you love.
As far as whose pilots have done what. It is better to leave that subject alone. And the general public does not care about our little spat here or how our seniority list was built. They just want to go to grandmas house safely, on time and cheap.
Sully and Skiles tried selling this load of crap to the Jury and it didn't sit real well with them either......................Guilty of DFR
Alex, I'll take TOGA for 2000$
Ricky Bobbly off in the mud in Hartford, unarmed A-320 shot...................................you must be soo proud.
luvthe9
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Big difference between Felony Assault and an aircraft incident. Wait till the trial hits the news again. Talk about dragging the brand down. Sully and Skiles pulled off one of the greatest saves in history. Then Skiles in your world gets to pull gear for some dude hired 8-12 yrs. after him. Real good. What a skewed sense of entitlement.I'll take being lumped in the East category anyday. This merger is never going to happen.
luvthe9
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Sully and Skiles- probably the best PR this company has ever had, and marketing drops the ball. Sully hits the road after he figures out the value they place on his input. Both the lowest paid in the industry- and you green lighted it all the way. Embarassing. If you think it would have been "misplaced" then you work at just the right outfit. The one that is clueless and cannot even begin to advertise. I have had so many people that could not believe the company did not exploit this. No wonder east pilots will never allow the merge. The longer we hang you out, the better shot you will go way.
cleardirect
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Would you do a little facts checking before you post full on BS again.
At the time of the merger the guy 20 numbers junior to Skiles on the Nicolau list was a captain. Hardly a new hire. Skiles tried crying crocodile tears and telling the jury that he would never be a captain. Turns out that he could have been a captain in LGA and DCA at the time of the trial. But he CHOOSE not to upgrade because of lifestyle and did not want to sit reserve.
Is there a class on the east in how to lie and misstate facts or was that a job requirement to get hired?
cleardirect
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Why do we need to go away?
According to usapa they can negotiated seniority like a crew meal, they are going to win in the ninth, they are going to ask nicely and the company will give you DOH.
When all of that happens you get to shove all the west guys to the bottom of the list and you are protected from ever being furloughed again. You gain another 125 airplanes that you would have never had. All those captain upgrades. All of us throwing gear for you.
If you and usapa is so confident that you are going to win you should be doing everything you can to complete this merger and get the DOH locked in.
But wait I guess you are not so confident that you and usapa are going to win and that the company would be willing to undo binding arbitration. I guess you see the only way out of the big deep hole that you and the east pilots dug for yourself is to hope that Parker splits us and you get a redo.
News flash. The east as a stand alone will die. That means you would have to merger with someone else. Care to speculate? Looks like UAL/CAL might happen. That leaves AA. Ever seen what they do to merger pilots? What makes you think that the east is going to get a better deal somewhere else? What happens if the same or worse happens and you are in the minority this time. No delay, no new union just the street or swing the gear.
Unless Parker decides that your commuter routes match up with another commuter and you become a big commuter with a couple international routes. Who is left if not AA?
Looking for us to propose a deal. Looking for the west to be split off. Demanding to go to SCOTUS. Blaming the company because they did not exploit a couple of pilots. My guess is if the company had sent them on a tour you would be complaining that the company had no right to use and exploit them.
Freebird
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Sully and Skiles did a good job. They did what anyone else would've done in the same scenario. Except maybe they should've tried to move the thrust levers....don't know, I wasn't there. It's too bad however that Sully and Skiles became sell-outs for Usapa. The integrity speech he made didn't move the jury. Celebrity isn't everything. Nice try.
As far as personal attacks on what West or East pilots do outside of work......all I can say is "Is that all you've got?" Seriously, you cant defend the fact that a neutral, mutually chosen arbitrator created a senoirity list, who's results are final and binding and the East group is failing to comply. Nothing was stolen from you, my friend. You see, this merger isnt just about you. The courts will rule soon and you will again be disappointed, downtrodden and hell bent on destroying this place. You have your vote. Use it.
Cleary is afraid. He knows that your group would vote in a contract. That's why he wont put one out. His problem is the injunction and the fact that he need to negotiate in good faith for the inclusion of the Nic Award in any and all future contracts. Your pipe dream about stealing OUR jobs, is just that. A dream.
Maybe you should look at your spin Baghdad Bob. Usapa is losing. And they are embarrassing.
Metroyet
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I'm pretty sure you're the one who won't shut up about how awesome your change of control language is. I was responding to the THEORETICAL. If you're so convinced Parker is such an idiot that he could never pull off a merger, why the hell do you keep bringing up COC? Wouldn't that make it a moot point entirely? Hello????
CallawayGolf
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And why are these pilots the lowest paid in the industry? Yep, that's right it’s the east pilots' own fault for seeking to avoid/delay the NIC and voting in a "union" that is only interested in discrimination and has no interest whatsoever in getting more money paid to its constituents. This is just another shameful example of myopic narcissism that results in self-injury. A case of Münchausen syndrome might just be a valid diagnosis for this pathetic group of attention-seeking whiners.
luvthe9
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Yes, it is awesome. And it exists. Parker has tried to merge, several times. He cannot do it if he changes control, UNLESS he pays the money. He can merge, he has to pay unless he gets the East pilots to agree to something else. Why the hell do I bring it up? Because it is the biggest issue with regard to him hooking with UAL or AMR. That is unless they allow LCC to maintain control. All the laughing from the west about LOA 93, and they didn't know it had the keys to the car in it. And Doug wants those keys.I'm pretty sure you're the one who won't shut up about how awesome your change of control language is. I was responding to the THEORETICAL. If you're so convinced Parker is such an idiot that he could never pull off a merger, why the hell do you keep bringing up COC? Wouldn't that make it a moot point entirely? Hello????
BoeingBoy
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For a minute or two, anyway. There would be no impediment to US being the acquiring carrier then once the corporate merger was complete changing it's name to United, with the United execs running the show. The US employees could get United uniforms, use United policies, etc, and that "leverage" you think you have wouldn't mean a thing. Those car keys you hold might work for a car somewhere, but probably one in the junkyard.
Jim
TheBadCat1313
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- Oct 5, 2009
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Luv,
I took a minute to look up where Skiles stands on both a DOH and Nic list. As it turns out, the person one number senior to him on the Nic was hired at AWA in 1998 and is actually two years OLDER than Skiles. Jeff goes from about 75% seniority on the east list to about, well uh, "ahem" 71% on the combined Nicolau list, a gain of 4% seniority under the Nic. Furthermore, Skiles will never have to "pull gear" for this individual (who is two years older than him) because by the time that guy can upgrade on a narrow body, Skiles will be upgrading as well or will be a senior int'l F/O, or he'll be on larger equipment.
But then, this isn't really about facts with you, is it? It's about spinning things and twisting emotional, visceral reactions into something unrecognizable. What you REALLY want is for Jeff Skiles to jump from 75% seniority to 49% under a DOH list, at the expense of every west pilot that built their OWN company and also sacrificed and struggled in their career.
If you guys would stop for a minute and actually take a good hard look at the realities of the Nicolau award, you would find it's not nearly the boogeyman you've made it out to be.
Badcat
nycbusdriver
Veteran
I've been given the definitive answer to this question by someone much more knowledgeable than I, and BB, too.
LOA 93 gave away the protections of Section 1D (Change of Control) of the east pilot contract if the company was in Chapter 11 while the change took place. It was, and THAT is why the pilots did not grieve change in control. LOA 93 negated that protection at the time. Since the company is no longer in bankruptcy, the east contract COC language is in full effect.
THAT is why it was so simple for Lakefield and Parker to "structure" the deal without worrying about COC language. THAT is why is is now an obstacle to Parker's dream of controlling the world.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
I just had to laugh at that one.
You guys managed to do exactly that for decades, and your are still not very far off that mark, either.
The east guys, after having enjoyed industry leading compensation for decades (while "guess who" was at the bottom), has been bottom of the heap for only about 5 years.
You are just too funny to be believed.
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