US Pilots Labor Thread 3/25-4/1

[EastUS]

You talk about the immorality of wanting what someone else has, yet will accept nothing less than East pilots taking what West pilots had - seniority.

That's seemingly complete nonsense, as I've personally not the least feeling that any east person should even be able to bid into west postions...period. On the other hand? Its' apparently your position, and that of the west, that the east system should be open range, free game to be had for any/all people out west, with half or less the years worked as their east counterparts,...a position I find both morally abhorrent and logically indefensible, to say the very least. Isn't this supposedly all about being "fair and equitable" and supposedly coupled with the idea that each side should keep what "they brought to the merger"?

PS: If you were at all even suggesting that some slotted methodology for non revs should be adopted (which would "make sense" within your notions of "seniority") then you might first also consider that jumpseat priveledges shouldn't be routinely denied by the noble folks out west There are some levels I can't even imagine ever sinking to that are common practices among those you so ardently support.....just an observation.

 

[luvn737s]

So then the pilots have the power to shut the place down?

Given the rancor over Nic do you think a strike vote and walk out is possible?

There has never been a successful (net improvement) strike in the absence of unity. Ever.

 

[700UW]

Bob,

My experience with the East pilots is they wont strike, these were people that never voted down a concession and were begging to vote on a deal that their leadership rejected.

When a company imposes a CBA under the RLA, the union doesnt have to strike, they can work under the terms imposed.

I dont think you will see many pilots actually give up a sixx figure income, knowing they cant replace it.

Plus neither side is currently in section 6 negotiations so the scenairo I posted is years away.

 

[N905TW]

Isn't this supposedly all about being "fair and equitable" and supposedly coupled with the idea that each side should keep what "they brought to the merger"?

Perhaps in your never ending quest to steal seniority from the West, you forget to realize that what you Easties "brought to the merger" also included 1500+ furloughs. All of which were offered recall and are still employed, at the expense of West pilots who brought a real job to the merger and are now on the streets.

 

[Pi brat]

Perhaps in your never ending quest to steal seniority from the West, you forget to realize that what you Easties "brought to the merger" also included 1500+ furloughs. All of which were offered recall and are still employed, at the expense of West pilots who brought a real job to the merger and are now on the streets.

I guess if ops haven't been merged and they are on the street their jobs were no more real than the east guys that were furloughed.

What you are really mad about is that the Nic hasn't allowed them to take east jobs, right?

 

[EastUS]

Perhaps in your never ending quest to steal seniority from the West, you forget to realize that what you Easties "brought to the merger" also included 1500+ furloughs. All of which were offered recall and are still employed, at the expense of West pilots who brought a real job to the merger and are now on the streets.

I see now = 1500 furloughees took recall and are "still employed"? :blink: umm..in what part of Fantasyland are said 1500 now "still employed"? As for "a real job"?..I can only assume that, by west standards..none of those unfortunately furloughed out west should now be of any concern to you?

As for any "never ending quest to steal seniority"...Umm...your position's that west folks with half or less the time worked/flown as their east counterparts should become "senior" to them...is it not? How can you even hit keyboard strokes and actually speak of attempts to "steal seniority"??

 

[ClueByFour]

Honestly; Is it even within your imaginings that anyone could/should take any self ascribed, ahem..."Army" of supposed Spartans (over the age of say, 13 or so) very seriously?.. :blink:

In case you missed it, their lawyer is killing your lawyer.

So, I guess the question might be asked how the Spartans' judgment is that much better?

While you are busy mocking their moniker, their lawyer is absolutely dismantling your man.

Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Pi brat]

In case you missed it, their lawyer is killing your lawyer.

So, I guess the question might be asked how the Spartans' judgment is that much better?

While you are busy mocking their moniker, their lawyer is absolutely dismantling your man.

Why do you suppose that is?

I wonder how the jury it enjoying the west lawyer beating the east lawyer? Oh that's right, they haven't picked yet.

 

[nic4us]

OK. I'll note that you conveniently ommitted the term "earned" in your last so...umm..where I seem to become befuddled here is exactly how the 11 year west pilot supposedly "earned" his/her place ahead of the 20+ year east person on any combined list again? Oh!!..Silly me!!..I forgot the obvious!! The west pilot did NOTHING to personally "earn" that place..it was merely the perverse whim of some abitrator! How easy it is to forget that, when such noble phrases like "earned" are being tossed about. :blink: Again..this place will never be without it's chuckles...

I can understand your befuddlement. However, the arbitrator ruled based on ALPA union policy and well estblished industry standards, not some whim. To say the West pilot did nothing personally to earn that place would be as true as saying the East pilot did nothing personally to earn that place, yet they both found themselves on two separate lists, with two separate but relatively equally measurable seniorities. Dave Odell was our junior guy, last on the list, he earned that place by being hired at America West. We all know Dave was placed below the last on your list, and as such remained the very bottom pilot. Does Dave deserve to be senior to your most senior furlough of 17 years at the time? I think so. Dave earned it. Did your 17 year furloughed pilot earn the right to take Daves job, absolutely not. Did your 17 year furlough earn the right to leepfrog 80% of the West pilot group, and take their positions, again absolutely not! So if you want me to say that Cleardirect or Dave Odell "earned" their positions, then that is exactly what I am saying, and I am also saying the East earned their positions, positions that hold no greater significance than those earned on the West.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Its' apparently your position, and that of the west, that the east system should be open range, free game to be had for any/all people out west, with half or less the years worked as their east counterparts,...a position I find both morally abhorrent and logically indefensible, to say the very least.

It's a shame you waste all that energy being morally abhorrent and logically challenged since that isn't what the Nic does. Under Nic, at the time of the merger a senior West captain was in the same seniority range as an East senior captain (although below the "517"). A junior West captain was in the same seniority group as a junior East captain. A junior West F/O was in the same seniority group as a junior East F/O. Neither East nor West systems are "open range" for the other side under Nic. Of course, under USAPA's DOH it's a different story - West system vacancies are "open range" for East pilots and what constitutes a system vacancy is somewhat vaguely defined.

Isn't this supposedly all about being "fair and equitable" and supposedly coupled with the idea that each side should keep what "they brought to the merger"?

Yes it is, although obviously "fair and equitable" is in the eye of the beholder. You believe that East pilots should take seniority away from West pilots in the name of "fair and equitable". I disagree. You talk about each side keeping "what they brought to the merger", yet have said that West pilots didn't earn anything, didn't bring anything to the table, etc.

PS: If you were at all even suggesting that some slotted methodology for non revs...

Not at all - just thought it was funny that you quoted a post about boarding priority for non-rev travel and said that that's the way it should be. I merely pointed out that non-rev travel was by DOH, or at least year of hire. Apparently you didn't get the joke in spite of the smiley.

Jim

 

[traderjake]

As for any "never ending quest to steal seniority"...

If you put the majority of the West pilot's below the junior East pilot you are stealing their seniority.

That's what the arbitrator said.

That's what the two pilot neutrals said.

That's what the Delta Northwest arbitration panel said.

The overwhelming probability is that the courts will say the same thing.

 

[EastUS]

It's a shame you waste all that energy being morally abhorrent and logically challenged since that isn't what the Nic does.

Little surprise that we differ there. Actually....thus far, the Nic, (that most utterly brilliant brainchild of alpa's genius level "processes", within which absolutely ZERO real responsibility regarding seniority was shouldered) ...well?..let's just note that rarely (if indeed EVER) in the course of labor events, has such a fabulously contrived product produced such monumental disunion, wholesale dysfunction, and that the nic yet exists as only a west fantasy. As to "what the nic does" other than that's yet to be seen. In fairness though; for it's unquestionable value as a perfect methodology for screwing up and completely dividing the involved labor groups, it's proved a tremendous success. I must give alpa it's full due in that regard. Since I honestly don't expect to see it ever actually implemented..I think it's all merely moot material for amusing conversation and lawyer enrichment.

 

[EastUS]

In case you missed it, their lawyer is killing your lawyer.

So, I guess the question might be asked how the Spartans' judgment is that much better?

While you are busy mocking their moniker, their lawyer is absolutely dismantling your man.

Why do you suppose that is?

Thanks..I'll always fondly recall, and have proper laughter from "the Spartans", whenever envisioning the "heroic warriors" out west As for whatever comes of the collision of lawyers?..I've never much fretted over such, as it's akin to watching little girls fussing about over a play dinner session, wherein they're fiercely determined to be the one who dominates just how the toy dishes and utensils are set up.

On the issue of "judgement" by way of lawyer successes? Let us not forget that Ojay was found "not guilty"..as was Robert Blake...who was supposedly bolting back inside the restaraunt...where he'd conveniently forgotten the gun used to meanwhile murder his spouse, who was also conveniently parked just outside at the time. Just imagine the odds "Why do you suppose that is?"..given the fantastic condition of the legal "profession" and courts in this country? I must naturally take as your inference that Messrs Simpson and Blake must both have been possessed of truly great judgement?,, After all; didn't their lawyers manage to successfully mock all reason and sanity, and make even the obscenely preposterous actually 'sell" within courtrooms?

There's ample reasons that no shortage of smiles comes from the general public, whenever the old joke of "What's 5,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? = A good start" comes up

 

[BoeingBoy]

As to "what the nic does" other than that's yet to be seen.

Funny, wasn't it you that posted:

"Its' apparently your position, and that of the west, that the east system should be open range, free game to be had for any/all people out west, with half or less the years worked as their east counterparts..."

I presumed from those words that you believe the above is what would occur under the Nic award and I was just giving you the facts (as distasteful as you find such silly things as facts when opinions are so easy to change when the situation warrants). Were your words not a prognosis of what would happen under the Nic award in your opinion? Or were you just pulling retorts out of thin air as part of of the usual "anything said by those not sharing EastUS' opinion is to be ridiculed, along with the person saying it."

Jim

 

[EastUS]

I am also saying the East earned their positions, positions that hold no greater significance than those earned on the West.

I must respect the fact that you clearly, and I feel honestly, truly believe in your position. I'd have to suppose that our apparent differences stem from my still being a bit burdened by somewhat idealistic notions (yes...against all actual observations..and even at this later part of life) and that I'd cheerfully hand over my seniority to anyone with more time and service performed, have always believed that to be both fair and equitable within any combination of peoples, and I think it very reasonable to adhere to that as a basic fundamental of any aspect of actual unionism...or even civilization for that matter.

The bottom line for me's that I could never consider my time to be "worth" more than twice the time of service performed by another person, nor ever worthy of being esteemed as "Senior" to anyone with said twice time and work performed, nor can I truly understand the thinkiing of any who'd think such BS to be at all proper, other than as being some manifestation of the purest opportunism and obscenely inflated fantasies of self worth....period/always/done-with-that.