US Pilots Labor Thread 3/25-4/1

[luvn737s]

USEast is simply re-stating his support for the demands Nicolau found unfair and unreasonable and not conforming to ALPA's guidelines.

Regardless, the award was handed down and the obligation to defend that award became USAPA's baby in May of last year. All other obligations to humanity, while admirable, do not negate the obligation to defend and implement the award. Perhaps different tactics would have yielded different results, but they were ignored at the critical decision time.

USAPA will have to re-focus itself away from pursuing DOH at all cost and move towards an inclusive organization that works towards serving ALL it's members.

 

[nic4us]

In fact, waiting two years, according to filed documentation, would have found US east making tremendous amounts of money (especially not having to support the west) and the boat anchor west, furloughing pilots. Would you buy stock based on a single snapshot?

According to filed documentation, along with verbal confirmation of the CEO, waiting 2 years would have put US east 1 year 50 weeks into the realm of Eastern and Braniff, well except for the fact that Eastern and Braniff were once great airlines.

 

[Dorf]

I hate to break it to you, but that 11 year pilot had more seniority at HP than the 22 year pilot had at "old" US - nothing magical about it. As someone else has said, it's all about return on investment - the HP pilot got a better return on his/her 11 year investment than the "old" US pilot got on their 22 years.

You just want the bigger return of the HP pilot traded for the smaller return of the "old" US pilot because...well...because the "old" US pilots are magically entitled to it.

Jim

Jim,

I used to have respect for you and your opinion as it was always factual and non opinionated (based on fact/contract), now it seems that you are a bitter man who missed the "age 60 bonanza", and are against anything that is not ALPA. To think that someone who was a pilot advocate would turn against the very pilots that he represented is mind boggling. Yes, there are problems with both arguments(east & west) but for you to think that a pilot who was never furloughed for 20+ years to be placed behind a pilot with 11 years seniority is very telling of your bitterness.

Relax and enjoy your retirement, YOU EARNED IT, just like the 20+ year pilot earned his/her place.

Dorf

 

[BoeingBoy]

I honestly believe and value real world seniority

So HP and "old" US were some sort made up fantasy? I could have sworn they operated in the real world.

Odd that you claim someone profits from maintaining what they had before the merger, while it's only fair for someone to gain by merger that which they didn't have before. A strange world you live in...

In fact, waiting two years, according to filed documentation, would have found US east making tremendous amounts of money

As usual, lots of claims with no factual backing...unless you'd like to post a link to the "filed documentation" you claim exist.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

just like the 20+ year pilot earned his/her place.

And at the time of the merger, just what place had that 20 year East pilot earned? Junior F/O perhaps? So you're saying that just because some outside investors put two companies together, the East pilots deserve a gift of more seniority than they'd earned - taken from the West pilots, of course.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

That's pretty basic = your obligation to "fellow pilots' in your same trade and craft, not to mention your tacit agreements as fellow human beings to even attempt some slight degree of respect for others of your species...and don't bother to respond if it's difficult, since I fully realize just exactly how "righteous", noble and "integrity" ridden your holy cause of personally seeking to have your 11 years magically made "senior" to another pilot's 22+ years truly is...and I find it nauseating. The full summation of the entire westie positon amounts to nothing more than, (as so well put by your very own "Leonidas")..."I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it". Anything you might care to add to that's pure spin and wholesale BS, meant only to cloak such vile greed in terms you can presumably, somehow live with.

No matter really, as I seriously doubt that you'll ever get your precious nic gift made into functional reality in any event, in any reasonably forseeable future..period. Call us all the very first moment that you and your "Leonidas" types ever actually get "the captain seat" out east.."and most of all" make "every single east pilot pay for it"

Wow!

That kind of anger will put someone in a early grave. If you are wrapped this tight and upset now. I certainly hope that you have some vacation time scheduled after mid May. Perhaps some short term medical leave.

I am simple amazed that you have turned a senority integration into a moral argument about the entire human experience. It is important in our little part of the world. But to put that much importance on this, a bit extreme I would say.

Now how about the east obligation to abiding by agreements? Where is usapa's noble and righteous responsibility to that obligation?

One last thing. I am not "personally" trying to do anything other then implement an agreed to system. Nothing more. However what are you trying to personally advance?

 

[700UW]

Here is a thought to ponder, when both CBAs become section 6 amendable (I undestand the West's CBA all ready is) and both sides go through all the steps in the Railway Labor Act (RLA) and an impasse is declared, at the end of the 30 day cooling off period the company is free to IMPOSE a CBA and pilots are free to strike.

See if that happens, NIC will automatically be placed in effect as you will have a new CBA imposed by the company.

Just a scenario that can happen without a pilot vote on the CBA.

 

[Pacemaker]

usair lost nearly $5 billion dollars during the 90's & 2000's up to the merger. They were bleeding to death even with the draconian concessions from the unions. The airline was roughly half the size it was in 1990. A record of futility seldom it ever equalled in airline history. If anyone really believes that given just a little more time the airline was suddenly going to make "tremendous amounts of money" then tell as all what the secret of this miracle resurrection was going to be because don't look now but the Titanic is down fast by the bow again and could sure use your miracle now.

 

[EastUS]

Wow!

That kind of anger will put someone in a early grave.

I am simple amazed that you have turned a seniority integration into a moral argument about the entire human experience.

One last thing. I am not "personally" trying to do anything other then implement an agreed to system. Nothing more. However what are you trying to personally advance?

1) I'm naturally touched by your clear concern as a "fellow pilot" ..but; my opportunities to achieve any "early grave" are thankfully, long passed, and you are mistaking reasoned contempt for actual anger in any case. As I've previously noted; While you may take your postings here and your holy cause all-so-very-seriously..It's frankly impossible for me to join in on either part without finding true, if somewhat wry, humour in it all. Honestly; Is it even within your imaginings that anyone could/should take any self ascribed, ahem..."Army" of supposed Spartans (over the age of say, 13 or so) very seriously?.. :blink:

2) I am somwhat amazed that you, regardless of however "simple" you stated, are so evidently blind to the moral issues involved. I'll apparently be left to my own perceptions on what's appropriate within "the human experience" therein, and 'simple" have to base my valuations on a larger and longer sampling of that experience than you've yet been afforded

3) As for "I am not personally trying to do anything.." .... "other than implement an agreed to system. Nothing more"??? I can only wonder if that was actually typed with a straight face The good news is that nothing written here means anything to the final outcomes, so no need to fret. I posted some weeks back that good popcorn's most appropriate for this venue, and that you should go out and enjoy your life in any case

 

[EastUS]

Had you waited two years all you would have seen would be hundreds of dust covered bankruptcy blue aircraft parked in the boneyard.

Glad to see you and eastus sitll around saying absolutely nothing with a whole bunch of words.

1) So Doc; Where would the AWA people have been in two years without the merger? Whle we're at it: What's your prognosis for two years from now? How many aircraft will be on line then? What will this company (if yet existing) look like then? As I've so rarely met any truly competent soothsayers...well..any/all details would be fully appreciated.

2) No charge for that. We all have to have sufficent hobbies to keep life amusing..and this place is always good for a chuckle or two

 

[EastUS]

Non-rev flying is by DOH within priority levels so I guess ya'll can put seniority integration behind you now

Good point sir. All that's required is to logically extend that established protocal

 

[nic4us]

Jim,

I used to have respect for you and your opinion as it was always factual and non opinionated (based on fact/contract), now it seems that you are a bitter man who missed the "age 60 bonanza", and are against anything that is not ALPA. To think that someone who was a pilot advocate would turn against the very pilots that he represented is mind boggling. Yes, there are problems with both arguments(east & west) but for you to think that a pilot who was never furloughed for 20+ years to be placed behind a pilot with 11 years seniority is very telling of your bitterness.

Relax and enjoy your retirement, YOU EARNED IT, just like the 20+ year pilot earned his/her place.

Dorf

I do not know Boeingboy's identity, and do not address him in the familiar. However, I like his posts, they are factual,and from an informed position.

What it seems to me is ( again I do not know him so I am just speculating) since he is retired, and does not have a real dog in the fight. He can understand the rationale that derived the NIC. He is being unopinionated, not picking sides, but picking reason over emotion. If he was being bitter, he would be sueing for his job back at the expense of a junior pilot because age 60 just aint fair. sound familiar?

You are correct, BB earned his retirement. Also, the 20+ year pilot earned his/her place, and that place would be somewhere between the 11-20 year West pilot on a combined list.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Good point sir. All that's required is to logically extend that established protocal

Right...using the "logic" that an East pilot is entitled to more seniority than (s)he had earned at "old" US while a West pilot should be overjoyed at having less seniority than earned at HP. <_< You talk about the immorality of wanting what someone else has, yet will accept nothing less than East pilots taking what West pilots had - seniority.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

usair lost nearly $5 billion dollars during the 90's & 2000's up to the merger. They were bleeding to death even with the draconian concessions from the unions. The airline was roughly half the size it was in 1990. A record of futility seldom it ever equalled in airline history. If anyone really believes that given just a little more time the airline was suddenly going to make "tremendous amounts of money" then tell as all what the secret of this miracle resurrection was going to be because don't look now but the Titanic is down fast by the bow again and could sure use your miracle now.

Futile? Hard to say for those that stayed. Made more than some jobs, but hard to say how things would have turned out if I went somewhere else. Except AWA, that wouldn't have been a good move.

You sound like you are glad the company stays on the ropes.

 

[EastUS]

You are correct, BB earned his retirement. Also, the 20+ year pilot earned his/her place, and that place would be somewhere between the 11-20 year West pilot on a combined list.

OK. While generously allowing that the east pilot with 20+ years earned something; I'll note that you conveniently ommitted the term "earned" in your very last so...umm..where I seem to become befuddled here is exactly how the 11 year west pilot supposedly "earned" his/her place ahead of the 20+ year east person on any combined list again? Oh!!..Silly me!!..I forgot the obvious!! The west pilot did NOTHING to personally "earn" that place..it was merely the perverse whim of some abitrator! How easy it is to forget that, when such noble phrases like "earned" are being tossed about. :blink: Again..this place will never be without it's chuckles...