US Pilots Labor Thread 3/25-4/1

[700UW]

If usapa is so DOH what about the Empire Pilots who got screwed when PI bought them and US did nothing to rectify it when PI and US merged?

Seem like a lot of hypocrites in usapa.

 

[EastUS]

- if you want to dispute my facts about what would happen under the Nic, bring proof. Otherwise you're just another "I'm right and everyone who disagrees is wrong" ego looking for a hat big enough.

Even you can claim no honest knowledge as to "what would happen under the Nic"..as regards how it would effect the company as a whole, the pilot group, or the future in general. I can only observe what actually HAS happened with the Nic obscenity...and that's hardly been anything at all productive to the effected labor group thus far..has it? Thanks again alpa As to "bring proof" regarding 'what would happen" within the always unknowable future? = You're joking..ummm...aren't you?

I'll leave your last portion as per hat selection for the "I'm right and everyone who disagrees is wrong" and subsequent issues of "ego" to those clearly far better qualified than myself, as my personal arrogance doesn't extend into the realm of believing myself a soothsayer

 

[ussnark]

If usapa is so DOH what about the Empire Pilots who got screwed when PI bought them and US did nothing to rectify it when PI and US merged?

Seem like a lot of hypocrites in usapa.

1. Legal means of rectification ran out (very, early 90's). Many of the ALPA reps did not want anything done.

2. The Empire dudes "appeared" to have traded airplane seniority for the PI retirement, using DOH for almost everything else, even airplane seniority for those aircraft they brought to the merger.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Good thing for the WEST

Apparently you're not that familiar with the new law. Where the same CBA represents both sides in a merger nothing changes - ALPA's policy of negotiate then binding arbitration if necessary would have still governed. It was that ALPA policy, identical to what the new law mandates when it applies, that was followed till the East didn't like the results.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

QUOTE (john john @ Mar 30 2009, 07:59 AM)
ALPA and the government has already put into place processes to integrated seniority since the questionable nic award

My apologies john-john. I misinterpreted your post as meaning that the new law was a result of the Nic award. You're absolutely correct that the new law was passed after the Nic award, but given it's language it wouldn't have affected the US/HP pilots seniority integration.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Apparently you're not that familiar with the new law. Where the same CBA represents both sides in a merger nothing changes - ALPA's policy of negotiate then binding arbitration if necessary would have still governed. It was that ALPA policy, identical to what the new law mandates when it applies, that was followed till the East didn't like the results.

Well..at least alpa's properly just history hereabouts now One "might" think that, had they been any semblance of an actual union, or at least equipped with fundamental notions about seniority (as per, say the AFA)..instead of a wagon load of horse manure/"policies" and "processes" ..well golly!..even after the famous pension surrendering..they might (tragically) still be around...don't ya' think? On your last = What's the logical problem with throwing out a buncha' buffoons in a hopelessly self-serving and utterly corrupt little club, that could always be counted on to produce nothing but "results" that the "East didn't like"?

PS: Within the above observations; I mean no disrespect to the sometimes, actually decent people who did serve within alpa, but rather the "associaton" as a whole.

 

[BoeingBoy]

my personal arrogance doesn't extend into the realm of believing myself a soothsayer

One doesn't need to be a soothsayer to recognize that nowhere on the Nic list is there more than a few West pilots in a row. The fact is that there are more East pilots in a row on the Nic list than West pilots (and that's not even counting the top "517") - the ratios used to construct the list guarantee that to be the case.

Without a large block of nothing but West pilots, there is no way for them to "range freely" in the East system - at most only a few West pilots could take vacancies in the East system before East pilots were the next in line.

Of course, under your beloved DOH only a few weak and in at least 1 case contradictory conditions & restrictions prevent the East from "ranging freely" in the West system. Who would interpret how those C&R's would work in practice? None other than an East controlled USAPA. I'm sure that you're of the opinion that East pilots are entitled to such an outcome, however. After all, why should a West pilot hold a captain slot with only 10-11 years when there are so many East pilots who've waited so much longer and are therefore due their entitlement.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

One doesn't need to be a soothsayer to recognize that nowhere on the Nic list is there more than a few West pilots in a row.

...And..that has what to do with anything?..other than to establish that ridiculous "slotting" occurred?

As far as conditions and restrictions? = You fail to note that NONE exist within the nic monstrosity, that in ANY way afford the slightest protection for those out east. Let's revisit that briefly = N.O.N.E....ZERO whatsoever..and you're evidently just fine with that, while yet completely dubious about the current intent to afford such for the west's benefit?....the term "interesting" comes to mind here

 

[BoeingBoy]

You can lay this whole mess right at the feet of our Federal Government. Here is the Libertarian Party viewpoint.

We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.

Actually the federal government had nothing to do with the pilots integration. The process used was agreed to by both MEC's and was within ALPA's merger policy - no government interference there. The arbitrator "belongs" to the NMB, but was paid by the two MEC's so really "worked" for them. The only real government role was placing airlines under the RLA back in the 1930's, but that didn't set seniority integration policy. The CAB did that under regulation, but that disappeared in 1978.

The only real role the government played in this seniority integration mess was in the NMB allowing a representational election, which USAPA won. That may or may not have extended this mess, depending on whether a joint contract could have been negotiated and ratified by now absent the change in CBA's.

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

I wonder how the jury it enjoying the west lawyer beating the east lawyer? Oh that's right, they haven't picked yet.

They have not.

But, you do realize that it's going to be about the DFR question and that based on what we've seen thus far, Judge Wake is unlikely to allow the trial to become a referendum on Sully, the Cactus 18, or anything else.

I understand why USAPA wants a jury, though. It's always been about trying to convince the angry mob.

 

[ClueByFour]

Ah! thank you. I see now. Whew!..Fortunately..I'll never be burdened with the unimaginably vast ocean of crushing "integrity" it would require for me to ever think that a working year of my life was worth twice, or many times that of any other person in the same class/trade/craft..and I naturally respect all out west for playing the part of mighty Atlas, and enduring such a weighty world-full of said "integrity"

You would find the real world to be shocking in it's harshness. Included in that harshness is the idea that one's choices (including who to work for) influence one's outcome in life.

Question for you: do you really believe a working year at, say, Fedex is the same as a working year at US (East or West)? I mean, really believe it?

Yes or no will suffice.

 

[BoeingBoy]

...And..that has what to do with anything?..other than to establish that ridiculous "slotting" occurred?

Actually it has to do with what you brought up - the ridiculous notion that the West pilots would somehow take all vacancies in the East system at will under the Nic award. Nothing like inventing a straw man argument when necessary - presumably your notions of integrity don't extend that far.

You fail to note that NONE exist within the nic monstrosity that in ANY way afford the slightest protection for those out east. Let's revisit that briefly

by all means let's revisit that. The Nic award says that the "517" get dibs on all 330 vacancies for the first 5 years. That's a condition & restriction. The new retirement age law partially superseded that C&R, but Nic put it in there and the "517 are still at the top of the Nic list so no West pilot can outbid them for a 330 slot. Another straw man bites the dust.

The Nic award also says no bump - another C&R and that straw man bites the dust again.

Last but not least, the Nic award says no flush - still another C&R. That straw man is spitting dust now...

Jim

 

[700UW]

Having a jury trial might not help usapa, the IAM had faced a lawsuit from the former trump mechanics, on its merits the IAM had the case won, the jury was swayed by things that had nothing to do with seniority intergration and they plantiffs won the case, very strange things can happen when it goes before a jury.

IAM APPEAL

More Info

 

[EastUS]

You would find the real world to be shocking in it's harshness.

Question for you: do you really believe a working year at, say, Fedex is the same as a working year at US (East or West)? I mean, really believe it?

Yes or no will suffice.

1) Oh...Puh-leeeeaze DO, ever-so-kindly, afford me a lecture on the "the real world" and whatever "harshness" you've ever experienced so's to afford yourself such a grandiose and absurdly arrogant platform from which to condescend Hint = Law and/or Business school hardly qualifies Seriously..since I've never "gotten out much" within the "real world" and it's "harshness" (like perhaps..environments within which organized peoples actually try to kill you) ..I'm simply all ears here I'm trying to properly steel myself for the onslaught..sigh..OK: Bring on the "harshness"..and don't even hold back on the "shocking"

2) I do, not to be confused with a marriage acceptance Next question?

 

[Richard]

Yet another reminder to STOP PICKING ON EACH OTHER....

Discuss the ISSUES not the POSTERS.