US Pilots Labor Thread 3/11-3/18 OBSERVE THE RULES

[Megasnoop]

There has been a lot of discussion on the west's refusal to join and participate. The constitution and bylaws of usapa are designed to discourage west participation. It is clearly stated that usapa is a DOH union and by joining you support DOH.

Come on, Tazz. ANYBODY, East or West could join USAPA. No one has been turned down. NYC hit it right. I didnt agree with everything ALPA did or believed, but I joined. When it got too much, I quit. As youve told us, you quit the West MC because you had a disagreement with them. Thats the beauty of union democracy. If you want to join and vote, you can.

Supporting DOH is absolutely contrary to every former America West pilot. Every one knows this.

And your point is? When one of your former ALPA Reps sniffed the waters to represent you, he was harassed. No wonder no one would step up for 8 months. Funny, but I mentioned that little factoid 3 times in the past 2 days. You guys refuse to comment. Must have hit a nerve that you cant counter.

Had things worked out differently and the constitution and by laws stated relative seniority, just how many east pilots would have applied?

Free choice, Tazz. You float a hypothetical straw man. Since it didnt happen that way, well never know.

The court will soon decide on this issue. Until it does, and until the constitution and bylaws of usapa are changed you won't find many west pilots willing to accept DOH by the very action of joining a union designed to hurt them.

You dont have to swear allegience to DOH to join, Tazz. The court MAY decide. But then, this might just go on until Parker sells the West and then the buyer does an AMR on PHX. If you guys lose, are you saying you wont appeal?
snooper

POST EDITED BY MODERATOR TO DELETE ALPO

 

[A320 Driver]

A320 Driver, I agree with your post.

The part the bewilders me is why, when Nicolau specifically asked East's arbitration attorney for another arbitration position just prior to the final submission of the issue to the panel for their final decision they did not take that as a hint of what might be coming and, like it or not, revise their position? I will never understand that.


Me neither. The East merger attourney also told the mec the path they had chosen had no middle ground...you either win big or lose big.

 

[hp_fa]

Me neither. The East merger attourney also told the mec the path they had chosen had no middle ground...you either win big or lose big.

That is the first time I have ever heard it said that the attorney did at least make his client aware of what they were doing and the possible consequences of doing that. So, for what it is worth, I at least feel better that the attorney did his job and it was the members of the East MEC who made the decision.

 

[Megasnoop]

A320 Driver, I agree with your post.

The problem with this is that it was pre-merger US Airways pilots who were making the decisions that went for all-or-nothing. It wasn't ALPA National, it was your own people that did this. Perhaps they were too much the politician and not enough strategic thinker when it came to this. They will undoubtedly claim, if asked, that the membership wanted DOH and therefore they felt obligated to go for DOH. The part the bewilders me is why, when Nicolau specifically asked East's arbitration attorney for another arbitration position just prior to the final submission of the issue to the panel for their final decision they did not take that as a hint of what might be coming and, like it or not, revise their position? I will never understand that.

You summarized why we got rid of ALPA well, hp. PLUS losing our pensions, PLUS not being able to recall Reps, PLUS ALPA throwing our PHL Reps out of office, PLUS the ALPA gravy-train. Remember, it was the discredited ALPA MEC that caused these problems, aided and abetted by ALPA.

Now you have USAPA. Guess what? It is in many ways the same, specifically run by East pilots who are pressing for DOH anyway they can get it. In this case, by making the Rules and By-Laws specify a DOH integration and also making the membership application state that.

Slow down, hp. Bad guess. The founders of USAPA were non-office holders and some were even non-members. That theory has been totally discredited, but it keeps going on, taking on a life of its own. The only way we were "pressing" DOH is with substantial restrictions and conditions. We presented it at the table last fall. It is now on the back burner, awaiting the Addington results. This whole West arument for not joined is smoke screen. Glad it happened, though. Itll make good fodder for the lawsuit.

It would seem to me that if a West pilot had signed that and it had gone to court that USAPA would be waving membership applications to the court saying these applications serve as a waiver of any complaints on how USAPA is operating.

There was no "agree to DOH" in the application. It was stock-in-trade, bolier-plate language. The entire C&BLs had to be presented to the NMB for approval. Abide by the C&BLs. DOH was a position, agreeing to DOH was not a prerequisite to joining. No one got turned down for writing exceptions on the application. Joining doesnt mean wearing a DOH lanyard. As NYC said, joining doesnt mean agreeing. But if that was true, then one of the DFR-6 waived his rights by joining.
Mr. Snoops

POSTED EDITED BY MODERATOR TO CORRECT ALPA NAME

 

[fodase]

That is the first time I have ever heard it said that the attorney did at least make his client aware of what they were doing and the possible consequences of doing that. So, for what it is worth, I at least feel better that the attorney did his job and it was the members of the East MEC who made the decision.

Don't let these east guys fool you, the majority of east membership signed an e-petition demanding doh or nothing, when the east merger committee told them that doh wasn't feasible, the reps threatened to fire them if they asked for anything less. Same thing happened back in 2000 when they were suppose to merge with ual. So no the east membership is not innocent, they in fact have always been this way, ual pilots know it and awa pilots are living it.

 

[Waketurbulence]

And your point is? When one of your former ALPA Reps sniffed the waters to represent you, he was harassed. No wonder no one would step up for 8 months. Funny, but I mentioned that little factoid 3 times in the past 2 days. You guys refuse to comment. Must have hit a nerve that you cant counter.

"Factoid"? Hardly, it is an allegation that is not true.

Can you offer any proof it happened or should everyone just take your word for it?

Didn't think so.

 

[Richard]

All,

I have to agree--the use of the term ALPO is derogatory, and from hereon is NOT to be used either in quote or new posts.

What's fair for one is fair for all....

Again--you can debate the ISSUES all you want--but name calling of ANY kind be it "thugs" "ALPO" or the like will not be tolerated.

As a reminder, any post containing such objectionable names shall be deleted in its entirety, not edited...so regardless of intent, if you use a derogatory remark in a lengthy post, the whole post is gone.

Thank you for your understanding and your cooperation.

 

[Metroyet]

This whole West arument for not joined is smoke screen. Glad it happened, though. Itll make good fodder for the lawsuit.



There was no "agree to DOH" in the application. It was stock-in-trade, bolier-plate language. The entire C&BLs had to be presented to the NMB for approval. Abide by the C&BLs. DOH was a position, agreeing to DOH was not a prerequisite to joining. No one got turned down for writing exceptions on the application. Joining doesnt mean wearing a DOH lanyard. As NYC said, joining doesnt mean agreeing. But if that was true, then one of the DFR-6 waived his rights by joining.
Mr. Snoops

Megasnoop,

I have to wonder why you CARE so much that the west join. Common sense should tell you that it ain't gonna happen until this nic thing gets figured out. Certainly the argument that the west somehow is getting a free ride" is laughable. Nobody is getting ANYTHING from usapa...east or west...why pay for nothing, especially when we have to fund the lawsuit to fight off the attack on our careers? Honestly the least of your worries now should be how many west pilots have joined your fake union. You keep holding on to this idea that non participation is somehow relevant to the addington proceedings. It's not...at all..in any shape or form, relevant to the DFR.

As much as usapa would love to use west dollars to help fund their misguided legal campaign to dismantle our careers, again, it ain't gonna happen. Maybe you could hold some kind of bake sale, or a car wash to help refill what must be drastically depleted coffers.

Anyway, usapas financial problems are not our concern. Again, you have the vast majority vote, why do you want the west screwing with the union from the inside so badly? Let it go. USAPA is going to have to fight tooth and nqil for every west cent they get. Is that a wise use of energy? I don't think so.

 

[toganoflex]

I like that comment. I bet a jury might also.

Why?

What's the jury going to do with it.

Better yet, what's Seham going to do with it?

 

[toganoflex]

West would not budge when warned at Wye River.

Warned by whom?

 

[cleardirect]

You dont have to swear allegience to DOH to join, Tazz. The court MAY decide. But then, this might just go on until Parker sells the West and then the buyer does an AMR on PHX. If you guys lose, are you saying you wont appeal?
snooper

Below is the pertinent sections of the original C&BL’s. So yes you do have to agree to DOH. Section 6 “accept and agreeâ€. Article VI places penalties for not abiding by the C&BL’s. Then the very vague number 5. Contrary to the best interests“. Very easy to fall back on the “it is in the best interest of USAPA (east pilots) to use DOHâ€. Fines ect. Snoop might want to read your constitution.

Next I find it interesting that you have a theory that Parker will fragment the airline. But that the west will be sold and reduced. Does it not occur to you that the same thing could happen to the east? All other airlines are reducing international along with domestic. Is the east somehow immune to the world economy? That Parker would rather work with a high cost much older airline. It is a dynamic world that we live in but the east seems to be stuck in the old school 60’s-70’s airline, union mentality. Not able to adapt to current conditions. You decide which would a management team rather work with? The group that has been poking him in the eye since coming on the property or the other group? A group able to adapt? Able to integrate honestly with another airline.

If Parker were to sell the west, take the east and merge with someone else. What makes you think that he would not put some very nasty poison pill in the deal to stop this seniority nonsense from happening again? Do you think that any other airline wants to merge with you by DOH? No, he does not need another 3-4 year messy merger. Maybe you guys are willing to accept relative in the next merger? But I doubt it. After all your precious C&BL require DOH.

Section 8. Objectives of the USAPA

135 D. To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with
136 reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.


306 Section 6. Membership Rights and Obligations

338 E. Members of the Association shall accept and agree to abide by the Constitution and Bylaws of the
339 USAPA as they are in force or as they may be amended, changed, or modified in accordance with the
340 provisions of this Constitution and Bylaws.


749 ARTICLE VI HEARING AND DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURES
750
751 A. Any member is subject to disciplinary action, including but not limited to fines, placing the member
752 in bad standing, suspension, or expulsion for any of the following acts:
756
757 2. Willful violation of this Constitution and Bylaws;
758
764 5. Any act contrary to the best interests of the USAPA as an institution or its membership as a
765 whole.

 

[EastUS]

I did mean it when I said I look forward to meeting you. I would like to see how you conduct yourself when not hiding behind a keyboard. I will be in PHL several times this month on ron's if you are interested. And please, as I warned you before, do not send me any more nasty pm's.

Wonderful! Then; All you need do's accept any prior posted offers, or come forth with whatever you think any appropriate flying or otherwise-based, mutually amusing wager would be, starting stakes $5,000 to make it worth anyone's while, and pm me. While I don't recall offering you any "nasty pms" = You may rest fully assured that you'll receive not only no "nasty" pm's from me, nor any at all should you not feel up to that. Frankly; I'd think it equally amusing to see how you conduct yourself when not "hiding behind a keyboard",..and placed under even the slightest modicum of perhaps financial, and certainly ego stress

Otherwise? = Spare me any more hollow chest thumping and total horse-hockey. If your eager just to socialize..find someone who'll reciprocate your feelings there.

As for the west fantasy of guaranteed supremacy within the legal system? = naivete en extremis is the kindest possible term there. I've no idea how any/all of this will play out in courts...nor can anyone have the least degree of certainty on any such dealings until their completion. Even should the west gain wholesale trumph in courtrooms (we'll agree to differ on the odds there), that places no instant swarm of voracious locusts into the migratory west-east stream, nor do I honestly ever expect to see that happen. I could be wrong. Only time will actually tell the tale...as it has thus far, and has done so in ways "Certain" not to be, by all prior west predictions.........

 

[Waketurbulence]

Clear,

Good post.

I wonder, could you also post the twisted way usapa has slanted the voting power so that even if every west pilot was a member in good standing, we would still be out voted at the BPR level.

That is why participation if futile. Until there is a level playing field, we can not effect change.

 

[Metroyet]

Warned by whom?

The Paper Tigers with the little puffed up chests.

 

[toganoflex]

1) It just tickles me that the side so suffused with self proclaimed "Integrity" and "Righteousness", so eagerly, but vainly, sought so mightilly to avoid facing a jury. One might ask the pertinent question = WHY?

Two reasons.

1. Because putting it into a jury's hands, as anyone knows, is not a great idea because they can come up with some crazy stuff sometimes. Why risk it? Seham wants a jury because they come up with crazy stuff sometimes and he's hoping they do come through for him. Its all he has left.

2. Because a jury trial wasn't warranted. Allow me since I know you east folks don't bother with hard facts.

From Wake's Order for a jury trial filed 2/28/09 (2:3-5):

"Although no jury trial would be warranted if the plaintiffs sought only injunctive relief, such a trial will be granted because their case includes a claim for compensatory damages."

As you may or may not be able to see, the only reason a jury trial was granted was because of our own doing - the claim of compensatory damages.