US Pilots Labor Thread 3/11-3/18 OBSERVE THE RULES

[Megasnoop]

Irrelevant???
The union is made up of representatives Sir. The BPR is nothing more than a group of reps. West was asked REPEATEDLY to provide reps from PHX and LAS. None were elected, none were sent. How can you be represented if you WON'T participate?
I get the drift of your argument but these are the kinds of questions that might be asked during testimony. Then it's up to the jury to decide what's relevant...not us.

A320 Driver B)

Got that right, Driver. And when the AWAPPA crowd FINALLY decided they needed a Rep, they complained they only got one. Earth to AWAPPA: you didnt have enough members in good standing to get a 2nd rep! The AWAPPA crowds own deeds and behavior will be relevant and come back to haunt them in the trial.

QUOTE (luvn737s @ Mar 13 2009, 01:49 AM)
To those who claim the west's refusal to participate: That's irrelevant.

The union has to represent ALL pilots, both members as well as non-members. They have a Duty to Represent. There is no Duty to Participate.

And USAPA has. 3 huge grievances that could get back all furloughed pilots. But on not participating, the BPR cant read your minds.

USAPA could have behaved in a less obvious way and perhaps clouded the issue of their representing the west pilots, but the evidence is quite clear that they never took the west pilots interests into account. The latest gutting of the west contract's Age 58 provision is a clear example.

Once again, another West who doesnt understand why the change. This was STRICTLY a West issue, complying with Federal law. It was because USAPA was representing 3 west pilots who complained that their seniority was being violated in the downgrade bid. They werent even union members. They were all lline holders forced back to reserve on the same equipment in the same seat. The age 58 provision kept them from bidding and being trained on equipment that would have let them remain lineholders. If Luvn had his way, no west pilot over age 58 could ever change equipment or upgrade. Or if down-graded, it could only be in the equpiment he was on. If that isnt a violation of seniority, then what is? But then the young wesy bucks dont care about seniority, do they? So a 58+ West 757 CA lineholder gets bumped back to reserve on the 757. He not only loses the pay difference between line holder and reserve, but he also loses the ability to pick up another type rating and being able to hold a line and pick up hours for resume experience, which over the next 7 years could be important if this place rolls over.

Luvn, are you really not getting it? No, you wont reply. You cant make a logical argument on this.

Snooper, the truth scooper

 

[hp_fa]

Let me ask one question.

With the issues that revolved around the membership procedure, including the portions where West folks had to sign the membership app (that may have contained questionable language from their viewpoints) and also that they could not be granted membership because there was apparently no mechacnism for them to be approved under the original bylaws and/or rules, could they have joined in time to have any representative?

I'm not trying to start an argument, just asking what I consider to be a reasonable question.

 

[Waketurbulence]

I seriously doubt N1 is a United Pilot.

I thought the same thing after his first post....

 

[Pacemaker]

I thought the same thing after his first post....

If he was, considering the past histories of these two pilot groups (1994 & 2000) there's no way "DOH" is even in his vocabulary.

 

[cleardirect]

Let me ask one question.

With the issues that revolved around the membership procedure, including the portions where West folks had to sign the membership app (that may have contained questionable language from their viewpoints) and also that they could not be granted membership because there was apparently no mechacnism for them to be approved under the original bylaws and/or rules, could they have joined in time to have any representative?

I'm not trying to start an argument, just asking what I consider to be a reasonable question.

Section 3. Application and Approval for Membership
224
225 A. All applications for membership shall be on a standard form provided by the Secretary-Treasurer
226 and shall be submitted to the pilot’s Domicile Officers.
227
228 B. Each application for membership shall be voted upon at any duly convened meeting of the Domicile
229 by the members of the Domicile which has jurisdiction over the application. An applicant for
230 membership must receive an approval of the majority of those present at the meeting in order to be
231 admitted into membership. When an inactive or executive member returns to active line flying his
232 account will be reactivated and all new dues and assessments will be charged from the day of his
233 return to line flying.

This is the language that was in the original C&BL’s. As you can see. Since there was no PHX or LAS domicile rep. There could not be a domicile meeting. No meeting, no vote to bring in member. No vote, no membership. No membership, no way to change anything. No way to vote or voice a dissenting opinion.

The C&BL was changed in November but takes 30 days to become effective. So from April to December there was no way for a west pilot to become a member.

 

[Megasnoop]

QUOTE (A320 Driver @ Mar 13 2009, 04:19 AM)
West was asked REPEATEDLY to provide reps from PHX and LAS. None were elected, none were sent. How can you be represented if you WON'T participate?

True, Driver. But until last month election, all BPRs were appointed, not elected. Problem was, none of those sniffing around out west would join.

There were three or four that initially stepped up to be a rep but ALL were rejected by f/o bradford and the rest of the self appointed board of thugs...

Way off base, Eastpus. Of the "three or four that initially stepped up," sniffing around, none would either join and pay dues. USAPA couldnt appoint anyone to Rep positions without membership and paying back and current dues.

One guy sniffing around last May was a former West Rep. After word leaked out he was interested, he got attacked on their chat board and ended up having to file a complaint with the company. Also, one west guy sent an email saying he planned on joining. He was told in an email from one of your so-called leadership joining would be hazardous to his health. No wonder no one joined, paid and "stepped up."

COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR

 

[Phoenix]

...
The C&BL was changed in November but takes 30 days to become effective. So from April to December there was no way for a west pilot to become a member.

On April 17th there was a vote on the C&BL that allowed the West to have representatives elected as part of the NMB vote. The West chose not to have reps. In their obstinate resistance they placed themselves into an impossible situation that prevented them from having local representation. If they couldn't have ALPA they wanted nothing. They have themselves to blame. If it weren't for the USAPA leaders initiating a change to the C&BL to establish representation and membership for the West in spite of their obstinate ostrich approach, the West would still have no reps or ability to elect them.

 

[cubfan]

Section 3. Application and Approval for Membership
224
225 A. All applications for membership shall be on a standard form provided by the Secretary-Treasurer
226 and shall be submitted to the pilot’s Domicile Officers.
227
228 B. Each application for membership shall be voted upon at any duly convened meeting of the Domicile
229 by the members of the Domicile which has jurisdiction over the application. An applicant for
230 membership must receive an approval of the majority of those present at the meeting in order to be
231 admitted into membership. When an inactive or executive member returns to active line flying his
232 account will be reactivated and all new dues and assessments will be charged from the day of his
233 return to line flying.

This is the language that was in the original C&BL’s. As you can see. Since there was no PHX or LAS domicile rep. There could not be a domicile meeting. No meeting, no vote to bring in member. No vote, no membership. No membership, no way to change anything. No way to vote or voice a dissenting opinion.

The C&BL was changed in November but takes 30 days to become effective. So from April to December there was no way for a west pilot to become a member.

Clear,
What you say is correct, however you and I both know that what was the old C&BL's was a technicality used out west to not join. They saw this loophole as a legal way not to have to pay dues. It worked, so good for you. If someone who knew nothing, saw or read your claim they would think that when someone wanted to join, the union said "sorry you don't have a domicile or rep, so their is no one to vote, so sorry you can't join". Now if true, that would be solid DFR. But we all know that didn't happen or wouldn"t of happened. If anyone elected to become a member, their app. would have been approved.

 

[A320 Driver]

THE TRUTH...

That's what I want to know. I know what I've read, what I've been told but there is so much bad blood on both sides of this issue, I'm not sure some of you (or me) would know the honest truth if it smacked us in the face. If there is one hope, one shining light that could come from this court battle, I hope it will be that the cover will be lifted and we will finally know the truth of this whole mess.

I do know this: the Nic sucks for a whole lot of people. We got it because we were told by an arbitrator that we had no value, no worth and no future. We asked for too much and got handed our heads. I'm angry for the way our MEC forced this DOH or NOTHING issue, for the punitive award that NIC rained down and for all the litigation that sprang from it. BUT I am angry most of all at ALPA National for a total lack of leadership and guts. USAPA is NOT what I wanted for an in house union but it could have been better were it not for this thing (the NIC) that brought about it's inception.

We have no where to go win or lose.

A320 Driver B)

 

[Richard]

e .....self appointed board of thugs...

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The quote above is a perfect example of what is NOT permitted on this board.

Name calling, insults and attacking other members or groups is specifically prohibited.
The originating post has been deleted. Please refer back to the FIRST post in this thread.

Thank you.

 

[Megasnoop]

Clear,
What you say is correct, however you and I both know that what was the old C&BL's was a technicality used out west to not join. They saw this loophole as a legal way not to have to pay dues. It worked, so good for you. If someone who knew nothing, saw or read your claim they would think that when someone wanted to join, the union said "sorry you don't have a domicile or rep, so their is no one to vote, so sorry you can't join". Now if true, that would be solid DFR. But we all know that didn't happen or wouldn"t of happened. If anyone elected to become a member, their app. would have been approved.

Cubfan, your spot-on. Kind of like the Menendez brothers, killing their parents and asking for leniency, since they were now orphans. Made no sense. I can see the jury rolling their eyes on that. Its coming back to haunt them.
Mr. Snoop

 

[tazz]

There has been a lot of discussion on the west's refusal to join and participate. The constitution and bylaws of usapa are designed to discourage west participation. It is clearly stated that usapa is a DOH union and by joining you support DOH. Supporting DOH is absolutely contrary to every former America West pilot. Every one knows this.

Had things worked out differently and the constitution and by laws stated relative seniority, just how many east pilots would have applied?

We are in court now because usapa was designed to disadvantage the west pilots. The east pilots did not honor agreements made when under alpa and used their majority in numbers to change unions, the resulting union designed solely to further the interests of the east pilots only.

The court will soon decide on this issue. Until it does, and until the constitution and bylaws of usapa are changed you won't find many west pilots willing to accept DOH by the very action of joining a union designed to hurt them.

 

[nycbusdriver]

There has been a lot of discussion on the west's refusal to join and participate. The constitution and bylaws of usapa are designed to discourage west participation. It is clearly stated that usapa is a DOH union and by joining you support DOH. Supporting DOH is absolutely contrary to every former America West pilot. Every one knows this.

Where does it really "say" that, as you contend?

ALPA had a lot of policies with which I did not agree, and I did not support. But membership in a union does not necessarily mean you support each and every policy and rule. No organization....and I mean NO organization...ever works that way.

I assume you are a citizen of the United States. Do you support EVERY law on the books without question or concern? Should you give up your citizenship if you disagree with a particular law?

Talk to Brice....he figured it out.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear,
What you say is correct, however you and I both know that what was the old C&BL's was a technicality used out west to not join. They saw this loophole as a legal way not to have to pay dues. It worked, so good for you. If someone who knew nothing, saw or read your claim they would think that when someone wanted to join, the union said "sorry you don't have a domicile or rep, so their is no one to vote, so sorry you can't join". Now if true, that would be solid DFR. But we all know that didn't happen or wouldn"t of happened. If anyone elected to become a member, their app. would have been approved.

Yes that was the original C&BL that was written and approved by an all east board. No west input. The reason that usapa had to change their C&BL was because there was no legal way to join.

You just admitted that usapa caused a DFR. This is the language. Not edited, there is no more. People can read it for themselves. You say that if someone wanted to become a member they could. Could you point out the legal process for a west pilot to join? Not some made up off book deal. But usapa following the constitution that they wrote. How were west members approved?

You see unions have a legal responsibility to represent. Members of the class do not have a responsibility to join, or to make an effort to contact the union. They do not have to send a rep in order to get those benefits.

April 1st an arbitrator will hear this case. Then determine if the west could or could not join.

 

[hp_fa]

A320 Driver, I agree with your post.

The problem with this is that it was pre-merger US Airways pilots who were making the decisions that went for all-or-nothing. It wasn't ALPA National, it was your own people that did this. Perhaps they were too much the politician and not enough strategic thinker when it came to this. They will undoubtedly claim, if asked, that the membership wanted DOH and therefore they felt obligated to go for DOH. The part the bewilders me is why, when Nicolau specifically asked East's arbitration attorney for another arbitration position just prior to the final submission of the issue to the panel for their final decision they did not take that as a hint of what might be coming and, like it or not, revise their position? I will never understand that.

Now you have USAPA. Guess what? It is in many ways the same, specifically run by East pilots who are pressing for DOH anyway they can get it. In this case, by making the Rules and By-Laws specify a DOH integration and also making the membership application state that. It would seem to me that if a West pilot had signed that and it had gone to court that USAPA would be waving membership applications to the court saying these applications serve as a waiver of any complaints on how USAPA is operating.

Tazz, I also agree with you.

nycbusdriver, I agree with the thrust of what you are saying regarding not agreeing with everything and working on changing what needs to be changed. But the signing of a membership application that a person views as fatally flawed is not the same as already being a member of an organization and arguing about proposed changes in the organization. I'd contend that the difference is not minuscule, but rather quite large.