US Pilots labor thread 11/5-

[Glucose Intolerant]

Both systems violate seniority. One system gives your more control. PBS is not perfect but it is better.

Only if your senior or above the "feasibility" line - if not, much like everything else around this place that is connected to a computer......

IT IS SUBSTANDARD AND A JOKE

 

[flybynite]

This whole concept that PBS violates seniority is getting out of hand. Line construction can also violate seniority and that is what we are talking about.

For Example. There is a small airline. 6 pilots 2 reserves. 6 pilots are contractually guaranteed lines. Each pilot flies 4 trips per month, that is 24 trips to be spread out over the 6 pilots. The lines are build where each pilot must get 4 trips and also be legal.

What happens if you come down to the end of the lines and the only lines left have 2 lines that start on the same day. Only allowing him to have three trips and the last trip has to go to the reserve. A violation of seniority. In order to fix this you have to take a good trip from the lines senior to the last guy and give him a good trip and move a worse trip into the senior line.

Another example. Same pilot set. There is one good trip that the top 3 guys always bid but the senior guy always gets. He bids this line. Now they include the training and the senior guy loses the great trip. Since the number two guy already has his line that great trip falls to a more junior pilot.

Unless you can wrestle from that junior pilot he is not going to give it up. Under PBS the training and planned absences are added first. So the most senior guy would not get the trip but it would go the next senior guy that wanted it. Therefore respecting seniority.

Okay....let's take it from the top.

The construction of a line of time has nothing to do with seniority. It's just a prepared line of time. It just has to be legal to fly.

And I'll be honest with you, the company sucks when it comes to line construction. They build too many lines with trips back to back. Not my cup of tea.

And when you get right down to it, I don't like the way they build trips. You and I have looked at the trips and thought to ourselves.....what idiot put this together?? It's not going to work in the real world.

So if you ask me...we have just as many problems with the trip pairings as with anything else and that needs to be addressed as well.

I think the company tries to build crappy lines to make us want to go to their PBS which is a crappy system at best. Cheaper for them and it violates our seniority too.

Nada...

 

[flybynite]

Another oversimplified way line bidding violates seniority.

I am say #1. I want a trip this week that goes to SEA cause I need to hit the fish market.

Next week I want the loooong layover in Maui cause my brother and his family are going to be there and that would be nice.

The 3rd week I need to go to ORD to deliver cash to my daughter in grad school.

last week I have training.

In any line bidding system there is not going to be a line to fit all my request. With PBS I just tell it to give it to me and it does.

Which method violates seniority?

Hmm....this is what we use the AIL for. (bid sheet)
And training kicks out trips.

 

[luvn737s]

Okay....let's take it from the top.

Let's crank the condescending meter down off of 11, shall we?

And I'll be honest with you, the company sucks when it comes to line construction. They build too many lines with trips back to back. Not my cup of tea.

If you understood PBS, you'd see that you could build schedules that have all the types of flying you like based on availability and your seniority. I bid turns rather than over nights, the fewer days on the road the better. I get the shortest trips my seniority can hold. Do I get all of them? No. But there would be no lines built that would be exclusively what I want either.

I swear the east would prefer a soup line to a buffet.

And they prefer USAPA to a union.

 

[luvn737s]

AWA used to have lines. They had Low Line Adjustment, Relief Lines, Available for Time (AT) days and all the other things that had to be used to make the schedule work out. PBS was received the same way at AWA as it is at US, initially. However experience trumped ignorance and now there are very few who would want go back.

 

[nic4us]

Hmm....this is what we use the AIL for. (bid sheet)
And training kicks out trips.

As I said, I do not know exactly how your system works. I think the best scenario is one Cleardirect has touched upon. PBS for line construction, generating lines based on the groups desires, then a retention of the AIL (bid sheet ) thing for those of us who get awarded some of what we want , but would like to have better control to make changes.

But the BPR shut down the PBS presentation with an immediate "we have to draft a resolution against this" before any Q&A back and forth could take place.

So what it boils down to is the company wants PBS and there is some language in LOA (?) 84 that say the pilots will be on a PBS system by 200?

And usapa does not want it, for stated reasons that show they do not understand it.

 

[nic4us]

Okay....let's take it from the top.

The construction of a line of time has nothing to do with seniority. It's just a prepared line of time. It just has to be legal to fly.

And that is the most blatant reason line bidding violates the same. In PBS seniority drives line construction.

 

[flybynite]

Let's crank the condescending meter down off of 11, shall we?




If you understood PBS, you'd see that you could build schedules that have all the types of flying you like based on availability and your seniority. I bid turns rather than over nights, the fewer days on the road the better. I get the shortest trips my seniority can hold. Do I get all of them? No. But there would be no lines built that would be exclusively what I want either.

I swear the east would prefer a soup line to a buffet.

And they prefer USAPA to a union.

Was I being condescending? Or are you being condescending by assuming I don't understand what PBS is as opposed to what it really isn't. And it really isn't what it's cracked up to be. At least where the company is concerned.

PBS could be a wonderful thing if programmed properly. And as I have stated, the company doesn't want to pay for a program that fits all of our scheduling parameters. Gee, I wonder why??? 🙄

Also they want to do away with the AIL, SAP, secondary lines and secondary line augmentation.

Don't try to make this into one of your USAPA put downs. I'm AFA and boy by god I've got a dog in this fight.

I want the same things you do. Quality of life. This is not westie versus eastie issue. This is a flight crew plus flight attendant versus the company issue. This is a joint effort on both our parts to come up with a bidding system that benefits us all.

That's all I'm talking about.

 

[cleardirect]

Okay....let's take it from the top.

The construction of a line of time has nothing to do with seniority. It's just a prepared line of time. It just has to be legal to fly.

And I'll be honest with you, the company sucks when it comes to line construction. They build too many lines with trips back to back. Not my cup of tea.

And when you get right down to it, I don't like the way they build trips. You and I have looked at the trips and thought to ourselves.....what idiot put this together?? It's not going to work in the real world.

So if you ask me...we have just as many problems with the trip pairings as with anything else and that needs to be addressed as well.

I think the company tries to build crappy lines to make us want to go to their PBS which is a crappy system at best. Cheaper for them and it violates our seniority too.

Nada...

We are making progress now. All PBS does is construct lines from the pairings available. So by your own statement PBS does not violate seniority. It simply take pairing and builds lines. The quality of the pairings is controlled by the contract.

If the company lines suck let's look at a way to improve those. If the company is building crappy lines lets take it away from them. PBS is an alternative to that.

 

[HPDriver]

-

 

[Tiger 1050]

All PBS does is construct lines from the pairings available. So by your own statement PBS does not violate seniority. It simply take pairing and builds lines.

But it does violate seniority Clear! If pilot #1 Bids for pairing number 001 and pilot #300 bids for other pairings it would appear that all will be happy. HOWEVER! If pilot #300's line is made illegal by what he/she bid according to COMPANY parameters and the fix is to award pairing 001 then guess what happens? Yep! It violates seniority by awarding that pairing which was bid for by a senior pilot to a junior pilot. In line bidding the lines are already constructed and if you are number 1 and you like line number 1, guess what, you get line #1. That is respecting seniority.

 

[HPDriver]

But it does violate seniority Clear! If pilot #1 Bids for pairing number 001 and pilot #300 bids for other pairings it would appear that all will be happy. HOWEVER! If pilot #300's line is made illegal by what he/she bid according to COMPANY parameters and the fix is to award pairing 001 then guess what happens? Yep! It violates seniority by awarding that pairing which was bid for by a senior pilot to a junior pilot. In line bidding the lines are already constructed and if you are number 1 and you like line number 1, guess what, you get line #1. That is respecting seniority.

That's not quite right.

When #1 bids, PBS looks at his/her parameters and builds a line accordingly. It then runs down the list to see if it could build lines for everyone else. This early in the process, #1 will have no problem getting what was requested.

As PBS keeps moving down the list of pilots, it keeps looking at what a pilot wants, what's left pairing-wise, and the pilots that are left. A pilot will get as close to what he requests so long as PBS can build legal lines for the remaining pilots. If it can't, then yes, that pilot gets globalized. But that tends to happen further down the list.

If PBS can build that last pilot a legal line, even if it doesn't come close to what he requested, then you shouldn't see an globalization. But the bottom guys tend to see better lines build by PBS instead of the crap that's left over when you use hard lines.

And once PBS finishes with your line, its yours.

 

[traderjake]

I didnt know Judge Wake could vote on OUR contract.

Unless the Appeals Court sends the case back to Judge Wake any contract you vote on will contain the Nic award.

 

[cubfan]

Unless the Appeals Court sends the case back to Judge Wake any contract you vote on will contain the Nic award.

trader, I agree, most on the east at least in most crew room bull rings(you know where most great decisions or opinions are made) feel that barring a miracle most likely the NIC is it. However, most feel the company won't or can't bring enough to the table for contract approval. So for now, the NIC sits and has to wait probably for a long time before implamintation.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I think USAPA has done the correct thing, at least right now, in taking a stance against PBS. It's a negotiating position.

We (USAPA) have it (line bidding); you (Tempe) want it (PBS); then, what are you going to give us for it?

Also, PBS is about jobs. The company is up against minimum fleet count right now, and I don't think USAPA is about to give them any relief whatsoever on that limit. PBS would effectively make staffing more efficient, thus eliminating pilot positions. It's that simple.

The BPR decision is about jobs and it is a negotiating position. To cave on PBS before you go to the table is a huge strategic error.

Maybe PBS is a better way to do things, and even the east pilots would eventually agree (especially if a well designed system was implemented, and not just the cheapest software on the market.) But for now, the position on PBS has to be "NO!"

You can't win at chess if you think you are playing checkers.