US Pilots labor thread 11/5-

[boeingplt]

No true, another USAPA delusion.

trader responded to my assertion that 90% of east pilots voted for USAPA with the above.

Here's the math

Votes for USAPA = 2723
Votes for ALPA = 2254
Total Pilots (assuming most voted) = 2723+2254=4977
assume all west vote for ALPA so 4977(total pilots) - 1800(approx west pilots) = 3177 east pilots
2723(votes for USAPA) divided by 3177(total east pilots) = 85.7%

About 85.7% of east pilots voted for USAPA

Delusional? Don't think so

Every indication I see tells me that while there are a number of variables in flux, that percentage of east unity is similar if not higher

 

[Metroyet]

Delusional? Don't think so

Every indication I see tells me that while there are a number of variables in flux, that percentage of east unity is similar if not higher

What if the the singular reason for such prolific "unity" is entirely illegal? You can be 10,000% unified but the laws of this country still overrule.

Besides, if USAPA is so certain of such unity, why not allow a vote on whether or not to continue to the SCOTUS after a failure in the 9th? Nothing to be afraid of right?

I'll believe in such mythical unity when there is a decent contract on the table, and each pilot gets to vote anonymously from the comfort of his own home and away from the eavesdropping ears of the A.F.O.C. in the crewroom. I'd be willing to bet your 90% unity would crumble.

 

[ableoneable]

It looks like the regular players are the people in opposition to the PBS system.

The 767 CA who has been building pilot and FA lines since the beginning of time very much wants to retain the keys to his empire. Ditto for the full time FPL grievance chair. The union gravy train must continue.

Never mind that PBS is part of LOA-84 and getting it replaced with archaic pre-built lines will cost the pilot group actual money, FPL must be protected. It's what the union is there fore - apparently.

 

[flybynite]

There have been some serious issues with the PBS that have cause for some concern with the F/A group. We haven't heard of any improvements to the system for our consideration yet.

Do you have more or more current information about a PBS that is being proposed?

 

[cleardirect]

There have been some serious issues with the PBS that have cause for some concern with the F/A group. We haven't heard of any improvements to the system for our consideration yet.

Do you have more or more current information about a PBS that is being proposed?

The biggest problem is training. It is not a complicated system just takes some time to learn the subtle things. Also people are resistant to change and some people just refuse to learn the computer. In that case it is their problem. Take the time to learn what the options do and how they effect the outcome.

With PBS you have a better chance of getting a line you like first without all of the fixing and time later in the month.

Bottom line is PBS is a line builder. It takes all of the pairings and distributes them as best it can and remains legal. I would guess that if we ran them side by side you would end up with very similar lines at the end of the month. However with PBS you spend a few minutes and you are done for the month. With line bidding you have to spend a few hours every month fixing what someone else thought was a good line.

The best system would be PBS with the east bid sheet or SAP whichever you guys like.

The west has been running it for several years now. There are better systems out there and improvements to this old one.

 

[luvn737s]

Have you ever used the east system? I've never used PBS so I don't know much about it, but a west pilot that was a former east pilot told me he liked our system better. Perhaps those folks that have used both should be consulted.

I've used a variety of line building systems over the past 25-some odd years and I still think that PBS is the easiest to use and provides the most consistent results. And if you want to bid pairings alone, you can build exactly what you want.

However, and this is a HUGE however, the satisfaction with your results will depend on 4 things: 1) the quality of the pairings which is related to the contract, 2) Your reasonable expectations based on your bid position 3) your familiarity with the weighting of "desires" and "avoids" (i.e are some things counted per trip or per hour?) 4) the overall scheduling section of the contract which dictates the rules by which pairing and lines are constructed.

PBS allows you to do things you never could with line bids and it allows you to store a standing bid in case you forget to bid a month. But it punishes ignorance and the first year or so the senior farts will be livid. That doesn't make it a bad system.

Now vacation bids? Don't get me started on that can of worms!!

 

[Reed Richards]

The best system would be PBS with the east bid sheet or SAP whichever you guys like.

The west has been running it for several years now. There are better systems out there and improvements to this old one.

Clear, I appreciate your idea for a "merger" of two systems. Truth is a lot of us old (edited by moderator: vulgarity)simply don't have enough years to learn and take advantage of a new system. Also, in my personal opinion, the best scheduling system I ever worked under was the original USAIR bid sheet..no SAP, and a straight seniority Reserve system. You always knew where you stood then.

Management has had the ability to implement PBS for what, two agreements now on the East, and could never get their act together. I have been living the nightmare of the company controlling the parameters (note the last 2 years of vacation bidding out East, and the current R and S reserve system) and I don't want to spend the rest of my career under PBS, while they figure out how to screw us once again.

RR

 

[luvthe9]

Also, in my personal opinion, the best scheduling system I ever worked under was the original USAIR bid sheet..no SAP, and a straight seniority Reserve system. You always knew where you stood then.

RR

Tha Bid sheet was the envy of the airline industry, there was nothing better PBS sucks for the bottom half of the airline.

 

[cleardirect]

Tha Bid sheet was the envy of the airline industry, there was nothing better PBS sucks for the bottom half of the airline.

Now you are worried about the bottom of the list? When the east was trying to put the west there it was not a problem.

Actually the bottom half does OK. Maybe a little better then with line bidding. With PBS at least there is the possibility to get a couple of days off that you need. Because those days are not attached to a line with good trips. It is about getting days you want and the trips you want in the holes. At least for me.

 

[flybynite]

The last I heard we were looking at 4 different vendors for the PBS. And to my knowledge, none have a system that address all of our scheduling issues. Or some do and the company isn't willing to pay for a PBS that does.

As I recall, AFA took a pass until the company could find a system that addresses vacation and position bidding.

 

[exB717Flyer]

PBS sucks for the bottom half of the airline.

That statement doesn't make sense and it shows lack of understanding of how PBS works. There's nothing about PBS that makes juniority any worse than it already is. As has already been written the biggest key to getting a good line is having good trips to choose from. Once the trips have been formed PBS gives you the flexibility to build the line you want as opposed to somebody else's idea of what a line should look like.

The real senior guys will like PBS right away because they'll get everything they want. It's not rocket surgery -- any captain who can program an FMS can learn to type 1000 POINTS DESIRE WEDNESDAYS OFF. The real junior guys won't notice much difference because they never get much of what they want anyway. Those in between will notice the greatest improvement over line bidding as they learn the subtleties of the system.

As far as conflict bidding that's simply a parameter of how the PBS is programmed. If you can negotiate keeping it then it will stay. PBS only does as it's programmed and when there's mis-awards it's due to human error.

To me it's real simple: dealing with line-bidding takes a lot of time and PBS doesn't. Since the end result is pretty much the same the choice is easy.

 

[flybynite]

Are you talking about the current system you are using now? Maestro?

 

[Reed Richards]

Clear, I appreciate your idea for a "merger" of two systems. Truth is a lot of us old (edited by moderator: vulgarity)simply don't have enough years to learn and take advantage of a new system. RR

In the very post prior to mine the following was used, without edit!

"PBS allows you to do things you never could with line bids and it allows you to store a standing bid in case you forget to bid a month. But it punishes ignorance and the first year or so the senior farts will be livid. That doesn't make it a bad system."

How about we all consider for use going forward the term "aged gaseous entity."

RR

 

[luvthe9]

The real junior guys won't notice much difference because they never get much of what they want anyway.

So there is really no advantage for the junior guy then, at least with our lines sometimes there are a few good or better trips thrown in with the crap.

 

[boeingplt]

That statement doesn't make sense and it shows lack of understanding of how PBS works. There's nothing about PBS that makes juniority any worse than it already is. As has already been written the biggest key to getting a good line is having good trips to choose from. Once the trips have been formed PBS gives you the flexibility to build the line you want as opposed to somebody else's idea of what a line should look like.

The real senior guys will like PBS right away because they'll get everything they want. It's not rocket surgery -- any captain who can program an FMS can learn to type 1000 POINTS DESIRE WEDNESDAYS OFF. The real junior guys won't notice much difference because they never get much of what they want anyway. Those in between will notice the greatest improvement over line bidding as they learn the subtleties of the system.

As far as conflict bidding that's simply a parameter of how the PBS is programmed. If you can negotiate keeping it then it will stay. PBS only does as it's programmed and when there's mis-awards it's due to human error.

To me it's real simple: dealing with line-bidding takes a lot of time and PBS doesn't. Since the end result is pretty much the same the choice is easy.

It IS really simple: PBS = pre planned absences = more predictability on coverage = greater productivity and less open time = fewer reserves for a given number of blockholders = more pilots on the street = BAD


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