US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cactusboy53]

C53 reply

I'll start by apologizing for rehashing old material if that is the case. Truthfully, I rarely lurk anymore. Perhaps if new events transpire my attendance will improve. That said, I have a hypothetical to pose. Let's say (by some wild turn of events) that a TA is reached with DOH that is so spectacular (remember that I said hypothetical) that 90% of all pilots (west and east) vote for it. Question: will a DFR be successful?
Do you believe that a judge would grant an injunction against such an overwhelmingly popular TA? If we agreed to binding arbitration, would this not constitute tacit acceptance of DOH?  Just curious, not trolling. 

DFR successful? Who knows? DFR filed...Absolutely. DFR I was deliberated in 90 (or less). The only reason that it didn't move further is because the 9th punted (weakly, I might add) with the claim (2-1) that it wasn't quite ripe YET.

Granting an injunction? Who knows? Seeking an injunction....Absolutely. Any TA with DOH in it will garner nearly all East votes, and I would venture a guess of less than 5% of the West votes (just a guess, don't get excited). Frankly I can't see a TA of any "spectacular" proportions (we would have to move as a whole group to get Doug to cave to the Kirby Proposal + the 7-8% additional testified in the Addington trial) happening.

I'm not sure what you are referring to regarding the "binding arbitration"...and "acceptance of DOH". We as a group agreed to binding arbitration when it came to merging seniority lists. USAPA agreed to binding arbitration with the company on the LOA93 outcome (What happens if you win LOA93? Parker balks and refuses to pay...what then?). We as a group agreed to binding arbitration as it pertains to the E190 pilot staffing and the three B757's that LCC got from ATA (wow...that seems like a long time ago, doesn't it?).

DOH is DOA. It may take 20+ years, but it will be the Nicolau list. Thanks for the questions.

 

[cleardirect]

Ok cleardirect. I guess by now you know that I was yanking your chain. I could practically see you salivating over there, saying "Please say he should have left them in, please say he should have left them in!", because by taking them out it helped us, IF he used the same ratio, right? Say he was going to use 2 to 1 no matter what, and then removed the larger numbers of east inactive, it moves the east group forward?

Maybe you misunderstood what I was talking about, maybe I didn't explain it well. Before I do(try), read pg 23 of the award, and see if you see anything strange there. Keep in mind that you said the PID was May, 2005, and the terms used pre-merger and post-merger.


Contrary to your smart axx tone, I've read it many time, just reread the whole thing again.
I agree with somethings Mr. Nicolau says in the award, but his logic in making the list fails me, and no one has been able to really explain it to me. Maybe you can.

Figured that out did you? Good for you. So Nicolau did the east pilots a favor by removing the pilots that left and using a 2007 list instead of the PID list.

Nicolau did you a favor by including the 300 CEL pilots on your list.

He did your guys a favor by telling you point blank that you are NOT going to get DOH/LOS and to try again.

But that was not good enough for you guys. You wanted it all. You wanted all of what he gave you plus the 300 recalled furloughed pilots after the PID to be senior to actives pilots. you wanted everything.

So the east pilots call him senile, crazy, incompetent ect.

Nicolau did you guys a favor and you pi$$ on him and his work and your word.

 

[cactusboy53]

You know what? I truly believe(not promise, not assure, just an idea rolling around in my head) that had you guys given just a little, maybe even as little as a couple year fence , you may have gotten those few hundred extra votes. You didn't, so the election went the way it did, and here we are.

I thought a card drive was coming out after SFO ruled?

Old history. After the East's reaction to the Nicolau, ALPA did some things that we have NEVER seen in an airline merger:
1. Blue Ribbon Committee
2. Rice Panel
3. Wye River meeting

No malfeasance was found in the proceedings. ALPA tried to get the AWA MEC to capitulate in some way to "offset the damages created by the Nicolau award" (Stephan's words paraphrased).

The AWA MEC had no authority to alter, augment or change ANY portion of the Nicolau Award. George Nicolau ONLY has/had the authority to make any changes to the Nicolau Award. The President of ALPA ACCEPTED the list. The President of ALPA DELIVERED the list. Doug Parker accepted the list and sent out a letter stating that the Nicolau Award met the company's requirement of a cost neutral integration of the combined seniority. ALPA's only other job is to DEFEND the Nicolau Award.

There is no person, no committee, no group, and no corporation that has the right or authority "to give just a little" (You have now completed 6 years of a fence due to circumstances...how much more would you like?). So here we are. 3 years into the failed attempt to get Date of Hire. Three years of Contract 2004 & LOA 93 wages. Three years of our dues going to SSM & P to argue a position OPPOSITE of what he will argue with the SWAL mechanics. Three years of web board bickering, when in the end it will be the Nicolau seniority list.....but NO RETRO PAY. Anyone who tells you different is making $150,000 to $200,000 on FLIGHT PAY LOSS.

It's your decision. Come and visit: http://www.reformusapa.com/

Don't get angry, get money and time off.

 

[Pi brat]

Figured that out did you? Good for you. So Nicolau did the east pilots a favor by removing the pilots that left and using a 2007 list instead of the PID list.

Nicolau did you a favor by including the 300 CEL pilots on your list.

He did your guys a favor by telling you point blank that you are NOT going to get DOH/LOS and to try again.

But that was not good enough for you guys. You wanted it all. You wanted all of what he gave you plus the 300 recalled furloughed pilots after the PID to be senior to actives pilots. you wanted everything.

So the east pilots call him senile, crazy, incompetent ect.

Nicolau did you guys a favor and you pi$$ on him and his work and your word.

I had it figured long before you typed it. Overreaching as usual. You never disappoint as you missed a key word in my post. He did us no favors, and used used some odd things, considering the May PID. Did you read your homework?

 

[Pi brat]

Old history.
(You have now completed 6 years of a fence due to circumstances...how much more would you like?).

Absolutely old, but it goes around and around and around.

Let's say 25 more years, I don't need that much but have to look out for those below me! Thanks for asking. If I go to reformusapa.com will they promise me it? Maybe I will donate a little money!

 

[Pi brat]

dupe

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I wonder if I'll live long enough to see this mythical card drive. We need this to happen, we need that to happen, once this happens then...whatever. The trouble is, 'this' or 'that' always seems to be in a different form than what was imagined. This overstategerizing won't help anything in my opinion, either bring it, or don't.

 

[AvgJoe]

..... DOH is DOA. It may take 20+ years, but it will be the Nicolau list. Thanks for the questions.
[/quote]

I guess my question/point C53 was that if the majority of ALL pilots vote for a TA, do you believe a judge will enjoin it to appease the now minority west dissenters? Care to speculate?

 

[No Land Green]

Absolutely old, but it goes around and around and around.

19 years more fence works for me., thanks for asking. If I go to reformusapa.com will they promise me it? Maybe I will donate a little money!

20 year fence is just fine with me and I'll be long gone by that time. The East new hires will certainly appreciate a 20 year fence too since the attrition train will be pulling out of the station in 18 months. Isn't it funny Brat how most all of the advancement is on the East side? No wonder why all the whining comes from the West. We have something they want and can't have, who's greedy now?

 

[nic4us]

Sorry your "career expectations" are not working out on the West.

I am not sure where you are getting your ideas, but my career expectations are working out just fine.

My expectation was that those who were in a position senior to mine would remain senior to me, and those who held positions and status junior to mine would remain junior to me.

Still is that way out here in the West, it is also that way on the Nic, and as long as we can keep the scabs at usapa from re-arranging the seniority list to one that favors the east pilots at the direct expense of the West pilots, my expectations will be met.

Thanks for your concern.

 

[cactusboy53]

Absolutely old, but it goes around and around and around.

Let's say 25 more years, I don't need that much but have to look out for those below me! Thanks for asking. If I go to reformusapa.com will they promise me it? Maybe I will donate a little money!

Sorry, Pi. The question embedded in my text was both sarcastic and rhetorical. I should have known that you & your pals would have jumped on that as an invitation. The fence you will get is the one that has transpired AFTER we get a TA ratified with the Nicolau Award. It may indeed be a 25 year fence, who knows? I have no illusions that you will vote NO on any TA with the Nicolau Award.

This is along the lines of "give just a little". There is no person, party, entity, group, committee or agency that can change any portion (like fences) of the Nicolau (with the exception of George Nicolau himself). It simply is not going to happen.

You just have to decide: Are you willing to delay for RJ wages only to have the same outcome transpire.....or do you want the money and QOL NOW?

 

[cactusboy53]

I guess my question/point C53 was that if the majority of ALL pilots vote for a TA, do you believe a judge will enjoin it to appease the now minority west dissenters? Care to speculate?

I really don't know Joe. I doubt there would be enough money offered by Parker to have any percentage of the West pilots vote in favor of a TA w/ DOH. In fact, the hard working folks in the NAC :blink: are quite near to signing away the West's INDUSTRY LEADING SHORT TERM DISABILITY PROGRAM in favor of the East's large sick bank (a savings to the company of an estimated 9 MILLION DOLLARS....Gee, I wonder why the company would want to sign up for that???). Please don't take my word for it: Read the NAC update, C2004 and the current East rendition. C2004 & the LOA 93 are available on the Wings page (along with east & west seniority lists!!! ).

The NAC is led by three previously furloughed first officers that have NO EXPERIENCE in contract negotiations. They only have maybe 6-8 of over 30 sections of a TA completed. At this rate, we'll have a TA to vote on in 2525! The TA will have DOH for section 22 AND a generous offer of Mesa wages. Real men of genius!

If a TA passes, it will do so with only the East pilots as a "majority". To answer your question, in the year 2525....yes in my opinion a judge will likely enjoin that action.

You can decide: Do you want to finish your career on the wages that you now make, or do you want to help change USAPA into a union that will get you a contract with significant changes in QOL & wages NOW?

 

[cactusboy53]

20 year fence is just fine with me and I'll be long gone by that time. The East new hires will certainly appreciate a 20 year fence too since the attrition train will be pulling out of the station in 18 months. Isn't it funny Brat how most all of the advancement is on the East side? No wonder why all the whining comes from the West. We have something they want and can't have, who's greedy now?

Oh, I can't wait for that. I'll be holding a line as a Captain on the A320, and all these years later the East captains can't understand why they are only making $125 (AND only getting 1/2 pay for mechanicals & dead heads), while EVERYONE else is making $186-$210 an hour for narrow body captain pay. HORIZON AIRLINES CRJ700 CAPTAINS MAKE $121 AN HOUR NOW!!!!

BTW, did you know that DELTA is about to go into contract negotiations for the SECOND time since the merge with NORTHWEST? Gee, I wonder how much more an hour they are going to get on that one?

Not whining, NLG....just the facts (you know, like the Leonidas brochures). Here, chew on this data: http://www.willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot-salary/

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I think we are destined for a lousy next contract, we are just to discombubulated to get anything but a lousy one. Maybe in X number of years after, when jockeying about the list is rendered moot and there is no reason not to pull on the same rope, we will end up with something decent.

 

[nevergiveup]

Oh, I can't wait for that. I'll be holding a line as a Captain on the A320, and all these years later the East captains can't understand why they are only making $125 (AND only getting 1/2 pay for mechanicals & dead heads), while EVERYONE else is making $186-$210 an hour for narrow body captain pay. HORIZON AIRLINES CRJ700 CAPTAINS MAKE $121 AN HOUR NOW!!!!

BTW, did you know that DELTA is about to go into contract negotiations for the SECOND time since the merge with NORTHWEST? Gee, I wonder how much more an hour they are going to get on that one?

Not whining, NLG....just the facts (you know, like the Leonidas brochures). Here, chew on this data: http://www.willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot-salary/

Why do you worry so much about what the East captains make?