US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

The PROOF stuff gets old Jim, but it's not why I take on westies. I see a lot of hypocrisy, distortions and flat out mistruths from them and I take them on.

try being called about everything in the book for 3 years - then I might say you've endured enough. My repeated requests for proof from Nosum for his personal attacks are easy to stop. Just get him to supply the proof (which he and I know he can't do since his assertions are false) or retract his charges with an apology.

As for hypocrisy, distortions and flat out mistruths, the East posters do their share of that too but I never see you lashing out at them. I guess East distortions and mistruths don't bother you that much. You practice the art of hypocrisy very well yourself.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

try being called about everything in the book for 3 years - then I might say you've endured enough. My repeated requests for proof from Nosum for his personal attacks are easy to stop. Just get him to supply the proof (which he and I know he can't do since his assertions are false) or retract his charges with an apology.

As for hypocrisy, distortions and flat out mistruths, the East posters do their share of that too but I never see you lashing out at them. I guess East distortions and mistruths don't bother you that much. You practice the art of hypocrisy very well yourself.

Jim

Nos, leave Jim alone! Please! There, good enough?

I have taken on east posters , a couple that come to mind are over the C18, I said to let SS gate run it's course and I've said the west didn't steal anything. How about you? How many times have you called out the west? You might have, I just can't recall them and there is a sense that you go to extremes to support only the west.

 

[Pi brat]

No. you had 2600ish active pilots. Now you have several hundred more which makes sense since you've enjoyed all of what was supposed to be shared.

Name one distortion/mistruth. Come on...should be easy if there's so many as you say.

I just did, that was prechill's claim that I spent pages disproving. Did you miss that? I don't see how.

See, I give you what you ask for and you ask for more. You asked FOR JUST ONE. I gave it to you, then you move on with another out right falsehood. We do not have more active pilots now than we did in May 2005. I have already PROVED that!

 

[luvn737s]

Unlike the cowards from the east. The west is going to change usapa not run away when things don't go our way.

You all did read the web site right? REFORM usapa. Not dump usapa.

No recall of the president. Leave him right where he is doing what he does. Fix usapa. Card drive from the west not likely.

It will be the east that wants to bring in IBT.

This is becoming classic Stockholm Syndrome. Why in the world would you want to keep USAPA and all of the baggage that comes with it instead of choosing an expedited path that gets us to a combined contract the soonest. It's about the results of the fight, not simply the fight itself.

I personally will not fund anymore protracted legal battles* as they have become an obsession that will not directly lead to a better contract through labor unity. I think a bipartisan group of pilots forming a union that develops an integration methodology and secures modest contract gains will present a contract that passes. Some will benefit, some won't and that's the way it is (personally, I think it will resemble the Nic more than not) and there will be too few people willing to support a DFR against the new union. I don't think a fresh coat of Teamsters will cover the many deficiencies of USAPA. Cleary's removal will send a message to Parker that the labor landscape is going to change. Voting in a new union will be seismic!

* except for the money extorted through agency shop provisions.

Wake up! USAPA can't be fixed!

 

[fodase]

usapa's latest negotiating session:

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/11774862/usapa-negotiates-with-parker-1?listid=22395674

 

[Pi brat]

This is becoming classic Stockholm Syndrome. Why in the world would you want to keep USAPA and all of the baggage that comes with it instead of choosing an expedited path that gets us to a combined contract the soonest. It's about the results of the fight, not simply the fight itself.

I personally will not fund anymore protracted legal battles* as they have become an obsession that will not directly lead to a better contract through labor unity. I think a bipartisan group of pilots forming a union that develops an integration methodology and secures modest contract gains will present a contract that passes. Some will benefit, some won't and that's the way it is (personally, I think it will resemble the Nic more than not) and there will be too few people willing to support a DFR against the new union. I don't think a fresh coat of Teamsters will cover the many deficiencies of USAPA. Cleary's removal will send a message to Parker that the labor landscape is going to change. Voting in a new union will be seismic!

* except for the money extorted through agency shop provisions.

Wake up! USAPA can't be fixed!

I'm trying to word this so it comes across as I want it to, a serious question because I'm interested in what you have in mind. Every question posed here is taken as a jab or leading, as mine about the 9th circuit was.

Are you thinking a return to ALPA, a new independent union, or something else?

 

[Freebird]

I wouldn't let you steer me to the store. I know it's your favorite topic, but I just don't have any faith in you.

The truth will set you free. Your denial and rationaliation will only serve to infuriate your side further. Enjoy your dream world.

USAPA = Afraid of the truth

 

[Pi brat]

The truth will set you free. Your denial and rationaliation will only serve to infuriate your side further. Enjoy your dream world.

USAPA = Afraid of the truth

Freebird=Not nearly as smart as he thinks

 

[aquagreen73s]

I just did, that was prechill's claim that I spent pages disproving. Did you miss that? I don't see how.

See, I give you what you ask for and you ask for more. You asked FOR JUST ONE. I gave it to you.

East has gained since the merger at West expense. That's exactly what Prechilill pointed out. No distortion. Just reality. Still waiting for you to name just one of those West distortions.

 

[Pi brat]

East has gained since the merger at West expense. That's exactly what Prechilill pointed out. No distortion. Just reality. Still waiting for you to name just one of those West distortions.

See, that's what you guys do-you're given FACTS, but you just say naw. We have less active pilots now than May 2005. That's a fact.

Here's a bonus. You stated that we were overstaffed on captains on the east. I asked how you came up with that and you replied you counted the C/O vs F/O. Can you think of just one reason we might need more C/Os to F/Os over here? Just one?

You should really just stop.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nos, leave Jim alone! Please! There, good enough?

If Nosum's next post either contains proof or a retraction with apology, yes it is enough.

I have taken on east posters , a couple that come to mind are over the C18, I said to let SS gate run it's course and I've said the west didn't steal anything. How about you? How many times have you called out the west? You might have, I just can't recall them and there is a sense that you go to extremes to support only the west.

As I have corrected West posters when I know that what they were saying was factually wrong. How about all the East claims of theft, various and sundry information supposedly in the file given to AOL, conspiracy to steal the data, identity theft, etc - none proven as fact by an investigation yet but that hasn't stopped most Easties from making those charges. I haven't noticed you jumping in with a "Why don't you wait for the evidence" or anything else. The Easties love to throw around charges as much as or more than the Westies. BTW, stating your opinion on the C18 is NOT "taking on" the posters that continue to claim they are guilty (Nosum being a prime example). Have you told East posters who continue to make those C18 calims of guilt that they're wrong? I think not.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Can you think of just one reason we might need more C/Os to F/Os over here? Just one?

It used to be because the captains generally had more vacation (42 days) but that went away. Now there's really no reason. I guess one could claim that captains as a group use more sick time, but that's not something you can plan for with staffing without knowing which captains will use more.

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

This is becoming classic Stockholm Syndrome. Why in the world would you want to keep USAPA and all of the baggage that comes with it instead of choosing an expedited path that gets us to a combined contract the soonest. It's about the results of the fight, not simply the fight itself.

Ok. But I lose you here:

I personally will not fund anymore protracted legal battles* as they have become an obsession that will not directly lead to a better contract through labor unity.

The legal fight is a result, not a cause. Eliminating the result will do nothing to eliminate the cause. But take heart, it's highly unlikely another round of funding similar to what it took for Addington will be required in the future. Silver seemed quite content to import relevant testimony and evidence from Addington, and all of that has already been paid for.

I think a bipartisan group of pilots forming a union that develops an integration methodology and secures modest contract gains will present a contract that passes.

Wye River? Tried that.

Some will benefit, some won't and that's the way it is (personally, I think it will resemble the Nic more than not) and there will be too few people willing to support a DFR against the new union.

Recall that the DFR evidence in Addington started under a different union. Changing CBA's does not break the chain of evidence. DFR II is going to be much less expensive than DFR I regardless of who the CBA is.

I don't think a fresh coat of Teamsters will cover the many deficiencies of USAPA.

Agreed, but I lose you here:

Cleary's removal will send a message to Parker that the labor landscape is going to change. Voting in a new union will be seismic!

If Cleary is the problem, then what is to prevent him from assuming power in the next union?

Wake up! USAPA can't be fixed!

But you more or less said otherwise by saying that by removing Cleary changes the landscape. If it does, then why the new union?

 

[Pi brat]

It used to be because the captains generally had more vacation (42 days) but that went away. Now there's really no reason. I guess one could claim that captains as a group use more sick time, but that's not something you can plan for with staffing without knowing which captains will use more.

Jim

I asked Aguagreen, do you have answer for him, carry his water?

Most F/Os I fly with only have one week of vacation, a third of mine, and little sick time. When have had no A320 C/Os in CLT several times in the last couple of months.

Staffing does seem to be stabilizing, we are down to 85 hr caps in most bases on most A/C.

 

[PullUp]

Are you thinking a return to ALPA, a new independent union, or something else?

No return to ALPA unless forced to do so. For the majority of the pilots here, ALPA did nothing to further their careers.
In fact, exactly the opposite. It was blatantly obvious that if an issue wasn't in ALPA national's best interest, it would be discouraged and quashed.
IMHO, I think USAPA can be made to work for everyone.