US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

some more substandard than others. Other than my pay trailing about 15% of where it should be, I'm quite happy where we're at. Just chatted with an ALK pilot of exact same longevity. He's more senior in his seat than I am, but that's because of the West going from 144 to 122 airplanes due to this abortion of a merger. You're welcome East. On the other hand, our (West) trip rigs are better than ALK's (5 hrs per day instead of 5:15); and they don't have PBS. West vacation is at the top of the industry. I know that our 4:17 a day for training tops DALs. Plus, I've got time measured in the decades to amortize the 15% I'm losing now. The best part of yesterday's conversation was about Kasher. Holy cow did this guy unload on him. Says Kasher cost him millions and that there's a feeling over there that Kasher must have been on the take based on how badly he rolled the ALK pilots. He outright laughed at the prospect of Kasher awarding East anything. His words: "I don't care if the contract flat out said snapbacks on whatever date and required no interpretation, Kasher will still rule against them."

I know. In fact, their arbitration didn't take half as long as LOA93.

What's Cleary hiding? We all know . . . .

Enjoy LOA93.

I hereby nominate this post for entry into the Airlineforums Ironic Post Hall of Fame.

As one of the chief gate keepers of all that is good and pure, I KNOW you educated the AK pilot, like you do us easties, right? You told him about the pitfalls of going to arbitration. You told him that just because the outcome of the arbitration was not as he wished, that it didn't mean it was wrong. You defended Mr Kasher, saying that he shouldn't talk about a respected arbitrator like that just because he didn't like the outcome, and that surely he wasn't on the take. Right?

Do you know anything about the genesis of AK's arbitration and it's outcome? A former east ALPA MEC member put put a synopsis of it, and it was pretty interesting. Maybe you should study up.

As for this abortion of a merger, you are happy right? Absent this abortion you wouldn't have your great schedule and contract. A SW new hire would.

I think the "You're welcome East." is the most telling thing in your post. It shows you think you are owed/entitled to something. You're not.

fodase-Who are the clowns?

 

[Pi brat]

Allow me to steer you back to the discussion of USAPA's duty to represent all US Airways pilots fairly. And to honor the inherited agreements from the previous cba. Including the arbitrated seniority award. Rather than wasting everyones time in seeking out ways to avoid the inevitable, and use any and all excuses to justify that path; Rationalization, why doesnt your group do the right thing and live by thier agreements. Appeal is NOT part of Binding Arbitration, it's done, the answer is held in the Nicolau Award. Like it or not.

I dont have a fragile ego and therefore my heart isnt broken by not being included on your "favorites" list. As far as a search is concerned, I'd like to recommend you and your East pals do some searching of your own in the mirror. After the initial laughter, you may just see the cause of this problem. Look closely, your integrity has to be somewhere in your reflection.


USAPA = What will they rationalize next?

I wouldn't let you steer me to the store. I know it's your favorite topic, but I just don't have any faith in you.

 

[Pi brat]

I was floored when USCABA actually CHOSE Richard Kasher. After what he did to the Alaska Pilots, he should never be hired again...so in the perfect USCABA Bizzaro world fashion, Kasher made perfect sense.

Fill us in Metroyet, tell us all you know about this event and it's outcome, since you know he should not have been hired again.

 

[aquagreen73s]

As one of the chief gate keepers of all that is good and pure, I KNOW you educated the AK pilot, like you do us easties, right?

Just told him this: There's a section in your BK LOA93 in which the company disagrees with USAPA. The company had this section looked at by M&A attorneys and it was clear to management that LOA93 didn't allow for snapbacks. That's it. I didn't mention the avalanche of impeachment testimony brought forth at the hearing, about the PIT f/o rep being confronted with his update which unequivocally said there are no snapbacks but then before Kasher denying it. None of that was mentioned because it's not necessary: the facts against USAPA are so overwhelming lopsided, the logic is so inverted, the results are clear. I was just curious to see what he had to say with just the minimal facts (which you should understand that the less one says about LOA93, the better it helps you). It's just an ALK pilot's opinion on the very rudimentary facts and his conclusion was priceless: EVEN IF IT WERE UNCONTROVERTED WHAT THE PLAIN MEANING OF THE LOA93 SAID, KASHER WILL STILL RULE AGAINST THEM (EAST). He's probably jaded a bit, but his experience with Kasher aligns with a lot of pilot groups' experiences.

You couldn't have had a worse choice for an arbitrator.

Do you know anything about the genesis of AK's arbitration and it's outcome?

Pilots asked for only X% of cuts. Company asked for Y%. Kasher awarded Y%+. Kasher gave ALK management everything management asked for and then a little more. I haven't read the arbitration. The results are pretty clear.

A former east ALPA MEC member put put a synopsis of it, and it was pretty interesting. Maybe you should study up.

Well please inform us! Let's hear it! PROOF.


Oh, and so you're inferring that Kasher was justified in rolling the ALK pilots? Is that your point?

As for this abortion of a merger, you are happy right? Absent this abortion you wouldn't have your great schedule and contract. A SW new hire would.

C2004 was in place before this abortion of a merger, and thank God for that. Another reason to just stay put is to keep the levers that affect West pilots' lives out of the hands of the group that has inflicted more self-harm by several factors than any other group in the history of aviation. Time will heal this. I'll be happy with status quo for another ten years if it keeps what we've got. The bulk of any pilot's career earnings is in the last decade and with you guys subsidizing the company, I'm happy with doing whatever it takes to get through $5 gas. Thanks!

 

[Pi brat]

Just told him this: There's a section in your BK LOA93 in which the company disagrees with USAPA. The company had this section looked at by M&A attorneys and it was clear to management that LOA93 didn't allow for snapbacks. That's it. I didn't mention the avalanche of impeachment testimony brought forth at the hearing, about the PIT f/o rep being confronted with his update which unequivocally said there are no snapbacks but then before Kasher denying it. None of that was mentioned because it's not necessary: the facts against USAPA are so overwhelming lopsided, the logic is so inverted, the results are clear. I was just curious to see what he had to say with just the minimal facts (which you should understand that the less one says about LOA93, the better it helps you). It's just an ALK pilot's opinion on the very rudimentary facts and his conclusion was priceless: EVEN IF IT WERE UNCONTROVERTED WHAT THE PLAIN MEANING OF THE LOA93 SAID, KASHER WILL STILL RULE AGAINST THEM (EAST). He's probably jaded a bit, but his experience with Kasher aligns with a lot of pilot groups' experiences.

You couldn't have had a worse choice for an arbitrator.


Pilots asked for only X% of cuts. Company asked for Y%. Kasher awarded Y%+. Kasher gave ALK management everything management asked for and then a little more. I haven't read the arbitration. The results are pretty clear.

Well please inform us! Let's hear it! PROOF.


Oh, and so you're inferring that Kasher was justified in rolling the ALK pilots? Is that your point?

C2004 was in place before this abortion of a merger, and thank God for that. Another reason to just stay put is to keep the levers that affect West pilots' lives out of the hands of the group that has inflicted more self-harm by several factors than any other group in the history of aviation. Time will heal this. I'll be happy with status quo for another ten years if it keeps what we've got. The bulk of any pilot's career earnings is in the last decade and with you guys subsidizing the company, I'm happy with doing whatever it takes to get through $5 gas. Thanks!

So sad. You just can't answer the questions. Why didn't you instruct the AK pilot, and teach him the right way to look at things.

You brought it up, you PROVE it, Jim junior. What did he give AK in relation to what other carriers pilots were forced down to in BK? You brought it up, remember? You parrot a POed AK pilot, but preach to PO'ed east pilots. Integrity. Maybe you should do some research before you open your mouth.

If you want to stay put, why all the whining and gnashing of teeth? You are a trip.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You brought it up, you PROVE it, Jim junior. What did he give AK in relation to what other carriers pilots were forced down to in BK?

Ask Kasher. If you get an answer, a lot of ALK pilots would like to know.

You parrot a POed AK pilot, but preach to PO'ed east pilots.

He's pissed, and understandably so. The East is pissed and understandably so. Bad things happen. What matters is how you handle it going forward, and that's where the East falls off the wagon. Look at what the ALK pilots did after the arbitration. They sucked it up, reorganized and came back after the company. They negotiated hard and got a very very good contract. They were smart, even though they were all still smarting from the whipping Kasher administered to them. We in the West have had our wallops, some from Kasher. It's just the way it is. You pick up, learn from it and move on. C2004 was quite an accomplishment for the West Negotiating Committee. We didn't get there by being stupid. Even to this day C2004 is definitely one of the better contracts in the industry. The pay isn't, but the fault for that lies elsewhere. We took our knowledge and rolled it into a seniority arbitration. How's that one work out for you? How'd it work out for the West?


How's all your foot stomping working out for you? You really showed ALPA. How's your attempt to cram down DOH on the West working out for you guys despite having a 2-1 majority? Answer: Bottom of the barrel, on LOA93 for as far as the eye can see. You'll stay in that position until enough on the East figure out that layering emotional reactions upon emotional reactions only makes things worse.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You brought it up, you PROVE it, Jim junior.

You know, you're getting crankier by the week. Nosum makes specific accusations about what I've done, so I ask for proof to back up. You take that as license to demand proof of anything a Westie says, even if it's not about you personally. For someone who claims to be somewhat ambivalent about how this all works out, you've adopted the East mantra of shoot first, don't worry about getting ready or aiming.

Jim

 

[Metroyet]

Fill us in Metroyet, tell us all you know about this event and it's outcome, since you know he should not have been hired again.

I'll give you a hint and let you do the heavy lifting.
"34.3%"

 

[BoeingBoy]

You know this is a public forum. Do you realize how idiotic your posts are at times? Just can't
let go?

UU and his fellow Easties

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

I keep hearing of this mythical card drive....Whatever. Bring it or.....or......or......whatever...

Unlike the cowards from the east. The west is going to change usapa not run away when things don't go our way.

You all did read the web site right? REFORM usapa. Not dump usapa.

No recall of the president. Leave him right where he is doing what he does. Fix usapa. Card drive from the west not likely.

It will be the east that wants to bring in IBT.

 

[Pi brat]

You know, you're getting crankier by the week. Nosum makes specific accusations about what I've done, so I ask for proof to back up. You take that as license to demand proof of anything a Westie says, even if it's not about you personally. For someone who claims to be somewhat ambivalent about how this all works out, you've adopted the East mantra of shoot first, don't worry about getting ready or aiming.

Jim

Ignorance and arrogance does that to me sometimes, I guess it's a character flaw.

The PROOF stuff gets old Jim, but it's not why I take on westies. I see a lot of hypocrisy, distortions and flat out mistruths from them and I take them on.

I'm not ambivalent to how this will turn out, I'm resigned to the possible outcome.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The PROOF stuff gets old Jim, but it's not why I take on westies. I see a lot of hypocrisy, distortions and flat out mistruths from them and I take them on.

Like what? Name one distortion or mistruth coming from any "westies."

 

[Pi brat]

I'll give you a hint and let you do the heavy lifting.
"34.3%"

Of course you'd like for me to do the heavy lifting, what's new. Nope, you started it, fill us in. What was in their contract that allowed the arbitration? What was their pay relative to their peers? How did it end up? What was Kasher's logic?

 

[Pi brat]

Like what? Name one distortion or mistruth coming from any "westies."

Just one? I've countered many on here but one of my favorites was "in 2005 the east only had 2200 active pilots".

 

[aquagreen73s]

Just one? I've countered many on here but one of my favorites was "in 2005 the east only had 2200 active pilots".

No. you had 2600ish active pilots. Now you have several hundred more which makes sense since you've enjoyed all of what was supposed to be shared.

Name one distortion/mistruth. Come on...should be easy if there's so many as you say.