US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Dupe post, sorry - Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

That was my second thought. The first was "You mean somebody believes training department rumors?"

I remember when Wolf was here - the training department was all but guaranteeing that US would be ordering the 737NG's and 777's instead of the Airbuses...of course that was the 737 training department.

Jim

I'm still waiting for the flat plate, LCD screens to be installed in the DC-9's.

 

[john john]

Well, with almost no East attrition this year and next,

Jim

Really, the east has almost no pilot’s leaving in the next two years to generate attrition

 

[JoeFL77]

How can that be? The east attrition is unstoppable and valuable. You all have said that attrition is the only thing you have been hanging around for. No hiring, let the shrinking begin. What is it 22 years on reserve or is it 25 years?

Keep hope alive but it is never going to happen.

Here is what attrition has done. An east pilot, who was Nic'd below Dave Odell is now a group 2 block holder and unfortunately Dave is on the street or flying on the East side. This is with east pilots flying east passengers. Except that the West is flying a net 20 percent of East passengers. So without that 20 percent East passengers there would be 20 percent less flying for the West. Mayb someone should be thankful that they were given something so they would have a job.

JoeFL77

 

[aquagreen73s]

Here is what attrition has done. An east pilot, who was Nic'd below Dave Odell is now a group 2 block holder and unfortunately Dave is on the street or flying on the East side. This is with east pilots flying east passengers. Except that the West is flying a net 20 percent of East passengers. So without that 20 percent East passengers there would be 20 percent less flying for the West. Mayb someone should be thankful that they were given something so they would have a job.

JoeFL77

said east pilot is in his mid to late fifties, is working under a BK contract in his golden years and will be spending a sizable chunk of his remaining years on LOA93. In the meantime, O'dell is flying for JAL. He's making more than any East F/O and he will return as a thirty something year old with his Nicolau seniority. He'll spend more than two decades in the left seat at Airways.

 

[Pi brat]

The AWH shareholders didn't put cash in the pot. But just like an acquisition by stock swap, the shareholders gave up something of value - their AWH shares - it get something else - LCC shares - that they thought would be at least as valuable. So,in effect, the AWH shareholders "bought" a portion of LCC with their AWH shares.

Take the DL/NW deal. IIRC, DL didn't put any cash on the line. But the stockholders accepted the issuance of more DL shares, which diluted the value of their shares, because they thought the combined company would would make their shares more valuable. So was that a merger in the technical sense or did DL acquire NW? The same as best as I remember for the UA/CO deal.

Remember that the merger was a hail mary pass by Lakefield. Apparently, according the the PIT newspaper article that 700 always brings up, no other airline wanted anything to do with US as a whole. Some assets, yes - assets and employees, no. So what I keep coming back to is that it doesn't matter what person sold the idea of a combined US/AWH, what matters is that there was the combination to pitch to them. If Parker hasn't been interested, there were no options left other than selling off assets to prolong the inevitable.

Jim

I agree. My point is that the equity that AWA stockholders held was not valuable enough to raise a ton of money by itself. I doubt AWA could have raised a few billion dollars to go out and buy a whole fleet of airplanes to go out and take over what US had in case of their failure. They bought their stock and decided to go along with the plan, not put up more money to make the merger possible.The group of investors that funded the merger decided it was a good investment to put up money to put the two airlines together and that the new whole would be stronger than the parts, and I think they were right. The US government and several other investors did very well.

One part of the puzzle that many posters ignore is Doug Parker and his management team. Although we all love to throw stones at them sometimes, they managed to impress Wall Street, and the investores liked the idea of the west team running the new airline. That helped sell the needed funding. Lakefield had a similar following, but from what I understand he never wanted to run this thing and wanted out.

Calloway and another poster was right about several points. Merger/buyout/acquisition, whatever, it doesn't matter. Neither side went into this as a humanitarian gesture. It was a business venture that both sides thought was best for their company and the employees were mostly along for the ride.

The merger has been a mixed bag for various employees, but I do believe Parker when he says that overall the majority are better off with it than without.

 

[Pi brat]

Pi,

Welcome back. B)

Thanks, but just passing through.

 

[Pi brat]

said east pilot is in his mid to late fifties, is working under a BK contract in his golden years and will be spending a sizable chunk of his remaining years on LOA93. In the meantime, O'dell is flying for JAL. He's making more than any East F/O and he will return as a thirty something year old with his Nicolau seniority. He'll spend more than two decades in the left seat at Airways.

I hope that is working out for Dave and he is happy. I hate that any of our guys was forced to go look for those jobs.

I'm not sure he will spend decades in the left seat at Airways. I don't think we will continue as is, and we all know what a merger can to to your seniority projections. Recent arbitrations don't bode well for someone on furlough,and I don't know if we go through another one an arbitrator will make the distinction that, in west opinion, he shouldn't have been furloughed.

 

[Pi brat]

As I've said before, I wonder if Parker had that "deer caught in the headlights" look when he discovered that the combined company wasn't going to be the low cost carrier that they picked the stock symbol to represent. I wonder, even now with the seniority/contract/labor issues, if he doesn't think "Why did I get involved in this mess" at least occasionally.

Jim

I too would like to read his mind sometimes(would probably be scary). I'd bet that if he did think the above, the next thought was "Man, how did I mange to fall into this seniority fight and use it to save all this cash!".

A hundred management teams, working a hundred years, couldn't come up with a plan that we dropped in their laps.

 

[cactusboy53]

Just got in from a trip and had the training folks on the jumpseat, the word is we the "east" have stopped hiring pilots, I think this is in anticipation of the upcoming un-merger, should be interesting.

Oh look another lie. So who said who's going to jail again?

 

[john john]

Lakefield had a similar following, but from what I understand he never wanted to run this thing and wanted out.

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/officerProfile?symbol=LCC&officerId=889518
Lakefield, Bruce
BRIEF BIOGRAPHY
Mr. Bruce R. Lakefield is President, Vice Chairman of the Board, Chief Executive Officer, of US Airways Group, Inc.


He trumps S.K.

 

[prechilill]

Here is what attrition has done. An east pilot, who was Nic'd below Dave Odell is now a group 2 block holder and unfortunately Dave is on the street or flying on the East side. This is with east pilots flying east passengers. Except that the West is flying a net 20 percent of East passengers. So without that 20 percent East passengers there would be 20 percent less flying for the West. Mayb someone should be thankful that they were given something so they would have a job.

JoeFL77

Your seniority list has swelled by 500 or so numbers since that snapshot back in 2005- thanks for reaffirming this. For some reason a few on here think Monda moving up with over 600 people behind him came from attrition, even though hardly anyone has retired in the past three and a half years.

 

[luvthe9]

I think this is in anticipation of the upcoming reduction in East flying.

Yes, that's it we have always pulled back in the spring.

 

[PullUp]

Really, the east has almost no pilot’s leaving in the next two years to generate attrition

Hold the boat. Age 65 Rule took effect 12-13-07, so if someone turned sixty on or after that date, they could stay till 65, and extra five years....soooo, that means that Mr. Age 65's birthdays will start on 12/13/12, one day after the apocalypse (if you believe the Mayans). THAT's when the attrition REALLY starts - with mandatory retirements - 20 months and 7 days from today.
Cheers.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Dupe post, sorry - Jim

Well I guess this is good a place to put this:


Browser - US Airways Disclosed Pilot Social Security Nos. - TheStreet