US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Metroyet]

Hey Reed,

When did you move to PHX? Seems you are making quite a few new friends out there and losing many over here. Sorry to see you go. Always looked forward to your insight.

V

Uh-oh!! Here comes a new "traitor" badge.

 

[Pi brat]

Hey Reed,

When did you move to PHX? Seems you are making quite a few new friends out there and losing many over here. Sorry to see you go. Always looked forward to your insight.

V

Why does disagreeing with the leaders make someone a traitor? Sounds like Gadhafi 's kind of thinking. Do you want a president that answers to the people he was elected to serve, or a dictator, that "will take care of his subjects, they need not worry"? If our leader is doing the work most want done, he has nothing to fear and should go about his business and ignore the comments.

USAPA set DOH in stone with its CB&Ls, so any person that is running the place will have to go with that until there is a change voted in or a legal verdict against it, so the argument that person X is trying to give that away doesn't hold water.

Supporting an officer that treats the west differently than the east will not further you goals.

Just because Cleary supports DOH doesn't mean he can get it for you, and if it can be had, there are others that could do a better job of getting it.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I have asked this before but (surprise!) have never received an answer. (Or maybe I missed it with all the detritus floating around this fetid cesspool.)

For the sake of argument, let's assume that your characterization of this being an "internal union dispute" is correct.

How is binding arbitration to resolve an internal union dispute legally less binding or less valid under arbitration or labor law than binding arbitration between a company and its employees?

I would be interested in seeing any cites you can provide, for my own education.

Union/Labor contracts grievance/arbitrations are conducted as a requirement of the RLA which stipulates how minor contract disputes are resolved as a way of preventing work stoppage. That is required and governed by federal law. The RLA does not govern how a union solves its own internal disputes.

ALPA picked a method internal to itself using arbitration if necessary to settle seniority disputes(probably because it craved political and legal separation), much as the AFA mandating of DOH is internal to the AFA. A union could use an eeny meeny miny mo methodology if it so chose, knowing that whatever the method is, it could always be legally challenged. The AFA, nor any of the multitude of unions that use DOH have ever been found in violation of their representational responsibilities.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Union/Labor contracts grievance/arbitrations are conducted as a requirement of the RLA which stipulates how minor contract disputes are resolved as a way of preventing work stoppage. That is required and governed by federal law. The RLA does not govern how a union solves its own internal disputes.

ALPA picked a method internal to itself using arbitration if necessary to settle seniority disputes(probably because it craved political and legal separation), much as the AFA mandating of DOH is internal to the AFA. A union could use an eeny meeny miny mo methodology if it so chose, knowing that whatever the method is, it could always be legally challenged. The AFA, nor any of the multitude of unions that use DOH have ever been found in violation of their representational responsibilities.

Every judge who has looked at Addington vs. USAPA has claimed that USAPA has legally harmed the west pilots by seeking to nullify the NIC. Judge Wake and the DFR I jury came to this conclusion. Judge Bybee in his dissenting opinion came to this conclusion. And Judge Silver’s interpretation of the 9th majority opinion (Tashima & Graber) is that they too found that USAPA harmed the west even though they were jurisdictionally restricted from resolving the matter due to a lack of ripeness. That’s five out of five federal judges who don’t see this as an internal union matter where no legal harm can be claimed by the west against USAPA. The Transition Agreement and the submission and acceptance of the NIC with payments to the east & west MEC’s by the Company have taken the SLI process out of the realm of an internal union matter. If judge Silver doesn’t make an explicit ruling to this effect, then it will be abundantly clear should USAPA ever actually produce ratified a JCBA (extremely low probability).

 

[CactusPilot1]

I typically believe people and organizations that have a history of honesty and integrity. Organizationally, usapa has neither.

They spend their time suing the very pilots they claim to represent and looking for real estate to make their president feel "safe"

Dick-taters usually start getting paranoid when their world starts crumbling. Spud probably knows he is on the way out.

 

[767jetz]

You and Scott Kirby. Little understanding of fuel flow at high, reckless speeds. Both of you will pay for your fuel waste.

Ever drive on the Autobahn? I was actually passed by a Porsche doing well over 165. It's an unrestricted zone. Nothing reckless about it under clear daylight conditions with no traffic. In the right car of course. I wouldn't recommend it in a Yugo. 😀

 

[cactusboy53]

you wish

I wish what? The commentary pertained to the purported use of the APU by the east pilots while in cruise flight over the Atlantic Ocean (You know, burning fuel recklessly). Try to keep up, Johnny boy.

I wish to fly red-eye flights to Europe with a sour AFO that spends the 5-6 hours bitching about how he got screwed by ALPA, US Air, Nicolau, Judge Wake, a jury of sensible people from the desert, Judge Bybee, Judge Silver, Doug Parker, Scott Kirby, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny & who knows who else? Yea that sounds GREAT! Count on all 1800 of us to run right out and sign up for that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK-Dqj4fHmM

 

[Code Name V]

It is a great place to live, real estate is a bargain and far enough from those Usapian rednecks. Suits me.
,.

Glad you like it there. We will do all we can to insure you are happy. All the more reason for separate ops forever. And don't be too misled by the dissenters. There will always be those that think they can do better and find fault. The majority of the pilots here support our leadership and are pleased to have them. From my perspective, the USAPA leadership is doing a great job. Since yours and the ex ALPAites comments are inversely proportional to their actual performance; they must be doing even better than I gave them credit for. So, please tell me again and again, just how bad they are and what terrible leaders they are. It is a great confidence booster.

V

 

[767jetz]

150KPH works out to about 90MPH so the driver in said photo isn't driving all that fast by Autoban standards or by Garden State Parkway standards for that matter. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program of whining, bickering and finger pointing.

PS: No animals were harmed in the creation of this post.

Thanks, but actually it WAS 151mph. (About 244KPH) Notice that it's a US spec car, taken delivery in Munich, so the primary numbers on the speedo are mph and the secondary are kph. It was shipped to the US about 8 weeks after my trip to Germany.

 

[Bear96]

Union/Labor contracts grievance/arbitrations are conducted as a requirement of the RLA which stipulates how minor contract disputes are resolved as a way of preventing work stoppage. That is required and governed by federal law. The RLA does not govern how a union solves its own internal disputes.

I don't disagree with your statement. But that does not answer my question at all, unless you are saying that only RLA arbitrations are binding / valid, and all other types are not. Lots of disputes are resolved through binding arbitration in the absence of a federal law so requiring, and they are all as enforceable.

ALPA picked a method internal to itself using arbitration if necessary to settle seniority disputes(probably because it craved political and legal separation), much as the AFA mandating of DOH is internal to the AFA. A union could use an eeny meeny miny mo methodology if it so chose, knowing that whatever the method is, it could always be legally challenged. The AFA, nor any of the multitude of unions that use DOH have ever been found in violation of their representational responsibilities.

Yes, an "eeny meeny miny mo" methodology may be able to be challenged - UNLESS it was the result of an arbitration.

And again (and I am not trying to be rude, honest), that still does not answer my question:

What makes the result of an arbitration to settle an "internal union dispute," where all involved have agreed to submit to binding arbitration, less binding or less valid than an arbitration result between an employer and a union / employee?

 

[CallawayGolf]

It is a great place to live, real estate is a bargain and far enough from those Usapian rednecks. Suits me.
,.

Glad you like it there. We will do all we can to insure you are happy. All the more reason for separate ops forever. And don't be too misled by the dissenters. There will always be those that think they can do better and find fault. The majority of the pilots here support our leadership and are pleased to have them. From my perspective, the USAPA leadership is doing a great job. Since yours and the ex ALPAites comments are inversely proportional to their actual performance; they must be doing even better than I gave them credit for. So, please tell me again and again, just how bad they are and what terrible leaders they are. It is a great confidence booster.

V

Well off the top of my head, USAPA has:
Wasted millions on fruitless legal endeavors:

• RICO
• LOA93 grievance
• PBGC
• Addington and Addington appeals
• Declaratory Judgment (far more to be wasted at $eham’s urging if Silver takes the case)​

Have deprived every pilot a meaningful raise and have no strategy or intention of ever negotiating one

Embarrassed the pilot profession by taking out a failed USA Today ad

Yielded all negotiating leverage to Management

Shown itself to be corrupt, morally bankrupt, and is perhaps in the initial stages of total implosion

 

[CactusPilot1]

[quote name='Code Name V' timestamp='1298564413' post=
It is a great place to live, real estate is a bargain and far enough from those Usapian rednecks. Suits me.
,.

Glad you like it there. We will do all we can to insure you are happy. All the more reason for separate ops forever. And don't be too misled by the dissenters. There will always be those that think they can do better and find fault. The majority of the pilots here support our leadership and are pleased to have them. From my perspective, the USAPA leadership is doing a great job. Since yours and the ex ALPAites comments are inversely proportional to their actual performance; they must be doing even better than I gave them credit for. So, please tell me again and again, just how bad they are and what terrible leaders they are. It is a great confidence booster.

V
[/quote]

Y'all go ahead and do whatever you want in Carolina. I don't care. Your union does not represent me. I just love your badge backers, red you are mad, blue, not as mad. Mine
has neither red or blue since I don't answer to Usapians. Scissors work great!

Good luck finding a trailer park for Usapians new HQ. Don't forget to buy folding chairs to beat each other with.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Internal USAPA Officer Messages. Troubling Details Emerge about Cleary’s Struggle for Absolute Power.

See Story

 

[Pi brat]

Well off the top of my head, USAPA has:
Wasted millions on fruitless legal endeavors:

• RICO
• LOA93 grievance
• PBGC
• Addington and Addington appeals
• Declaratory Judgment (far more to be wasted at $eham’s urging if Silver takes the case)​

Have deprived every pilot a meaningful raise and have no strategy or intention of ever negotiating one

Embarrassed the pilot profession by taking out a failed USA Today ad

Yielded all negotiating leverage to Management

Shown itself to be corrupt, morally bankrupt, and is perhaps in the initial stages of total implosion

Quite a bit of that list is premature. The RICO I agree with 100%, the leverage I agree, the ad I would have taken a different tack, but believed something needed to be done and the rest is to be seen. I really disagree with the PBGC because that is being paid for by an assessment of only those involved. Why do you worry about that? I imagine if you were in our shoes you might think the amount of money is worth it, even if just for closure.

 

[Zone5]

Thanks, but actually it WAS 151mph. (About 244KPH) Notice that it's a US spec car, taken delivery in Munich, so the primary numbers on the speedo are mph and the secondary are kph. It was shipped to the US about 8 weeks after my trip to Germany.

I looked into that program with BMW back in 2000/2001. At the time, I was making about $150,000.00 flying the 767 across the pond. I was contemplating getting an M5. Those were the days! Great BMW museum in Munich. You get the car at a discount, spend a week or two driving it around Europe and then ship the car back to the US.

That plan was "overtaken by events".

seajay