US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fodase]

The TA plainly states that it is amendable by the company and the CBA. A contract with the nic is not ratifiable. It has nothing to do with collusion, stealing jobs or trying to screw anyone on the West. We're just not going to ratify a contract that puts over a thousand pilots, who are mostly younger than us, senior to us. That has nothing to do with reneging or not honoring our word. It's simply our right to vote not to ratify a contract that we feel harms our career. Therefore if the company really wants a contract, which I personally don't think they do, then they need to amend the TA and bargain in good faith with the democratically elected CBA.

Well it is amendable if it is not done in a commission of dfr. You have it figured out though, you never have to vote a contract in and the company never has to give you a contract, that is the point of this exercise, without judicial relief you live with loa 93 or live with the Nic. BTW the next merger the Nic. will be the only list accepted this far by lcc management.

 

[Metroyet]

A contract with the nic is not ratifiable.

That's a myth. Your desire for a new contract does not Trump the rights of the West pilots to enjoy fair labor practices. Go ahead. Vote no. Nobody cares. You will not however, be allowed to pick and choose what agreement you'll honor.

 

[Freebird]

Unfortunately, one's career expectations change whenever there is a merger. My hat is off to the lucky guy or gal that gets hired at the right place at the right time.

Have you told that to USAPA? They seem hellbent on protecting the East only. DOH and Attrition, right? The West knows expectations have changed. Why doesnt the East?



USAPA = Looking for AFO's.

 

[Captain Underpants]

The company's lawyer said that they would not negotiate seniority, it was either Nic. or something else. He went on to explain that to be something else than Nic. they would have to amend the TA to DOH and that the company believes that it would then be held in collusion with usapa. This is when the judge told the company that they knew what they needed to do to avoid litigation from the west. So based on what the company said I believe that if the case is dismissed the company will fall back on the Nic. as the only way to protect the corporation. I think this is the company's plan, it will park negotiations indefinitely and the compny can operate with a huge cost advantage until the next merge.

fodase,

The AZ district court will dismiss the DJ because they don't have jurisdiction to hear the complaint. Of course the company can be sued....the company can be sued by anyone for any reason at any time. The company does not have a DFR obligation to the pilots. History shows unions always win DFR lawsuits with very few exceptions. The company can not use the threat of a lawsuit as an excuse to park negotiations because they are required by law to negotiate toward an agreement with USAPA.

USAPA will proceed full speed ahead to negotiate an industry standard contract with fair seniority provisions that fulfill the union DFR and CBA obligations to all pilots. If the company refuses to negotiate in good faith or makes any attempt to utilize the Nic list USAPA will execute the strike plan assuming 50% + 1 of the voting members authorize the strike.

Considering how destructive and costly the alternatives such as a long strike would be the most likely and simplest solution would be separate but equal industry standard contracts with the same status quo DOH seniority provisions we operate under now.

underpants

 

[Freebird]

And where exactly in the process ahead do you think "why USAPA or its CBL was created" comes into play? The AZ State case, The AZ Fed case before Wake, the appeal to the Ninth, the En banc appeal, the appeal to SCOTUS? Judge Silver? Let me answer..none of the above. Addington is dead, and if Judge Silver sends anything out that ends up in SFO with the words "Addington" it’s going to be a legal laugh riot. She can do a lot more, but Addington is DOA, no matter how it is supposedly resurrected.

So the next time you sue..that would be DFR II, the Ninth has already told you can sue as to the contents of a ratified contract. No dragging Bradford or anyone else from early USAPA on the stand (that is if your underpaid lawyers can even properly summon him.) The Ninth at least advanced the game to the point of ratification, not the creation of the union.

RR

Unfortunalely for USAPA your CBL doesnt mean squat. DFR is a DFR. If you choose to enrich the majority while depriving the minority (as USAPA tried with DOH) then you will find out. USAPA was created after the NIC Award, specifically to avoid the award and steal from the minority. Where have you been? Hittin' the Kleary Kool-Aid a little hard lately? The truth is plain to see. Open your 'superhero' eyes.

USAPA = We screwed up, BIG TIME...

 

[Freebird]

fodase,

The AZ district court will dismiss the DJ because they don't have jurisdiction to hear the complaint. Of course the company can be sued....the company can be sued by anyone for any reason at any time. The company does not have a DFR obligation to the pilots. History shows unions always win DFR lawsuits with very few exceptions. The company can not use the threat of a lawsuit as an excuse to park negotiations because they are required by law to negotiate toward an agreement with USAPA.

USAPA will proceed full speed ahead to negotiate an industry standard contract with fair seniority provisions that fulfill the union DFR and CBA obligations to all pilots. If the company refuses to negotiate in good faith or makes any attempt to utilize the Nic list USAPA will execute the strike plan assuming 50% + 1 of the voting members authorize the strike.

Considering how destructive and costly the alternatives such as a long strike would be the most likely and simplest solution would be separate but equal industry standard contracts with the same status quo DOH seniority provisions we operate under now.

underpants

Still cant live up to your agreements, can you?

 

[BoeingBoy]

All the parts of the TA apply...just don't forget to replace ALPA with USAPA wherever you find it. USAPA Merger policy applies now, not ALPA's

So you claim, but that doesn't make it true...

Jim

 

[fodase]

fodase,

The AZ district court will dismiss the DJ because they don't have jurisdiction to hear the complaint. Of course the company can be sued....the company can be sued by anyone for any reason at any time. The company does not have a DFR obligation to the pilots. History shows unions always win DFR lawsuits with very few exceptions. The company can not use the threat of a lawsuit as an excuse to park negotiations because they are required by law to negotiate toward an agreement with USAPA.

USAPA will proceed full speed ahead to negotiate an industry standard contract with fair seniority provisions that fulfill the union DFR and CBA obligations to all pilots. If the company refuses to negotiate in good faith or makes any attempt to utilize the Nic list USAPA will execute the strike plan assuming 50% + 1 of the voting members authorize the strike.

Considering how destructive and costly the alternatives such as a long strike would be the most likely and simplest solution would be separate but equal industry standard contracts with the same status quo DOH seniority provisions we operate under now.

underpants

You may be right, but I believe the company will tell the mediator they are in peril if they go with doh. IMHO this means usapa is parked indefinitely.

 

[OTTER574]

fodase,

The AZ district court will dismiss the DJ because they don't have jurisdiction to hear the complaint. Of course the company can be sued....the company can be sued by anyone for any reason at any time. The company does not have a DFR obligation to the pilots. History shows unions always win DFR lawsuits with very few exceptions. The company can not use the threat of a lawsuit as an excuse to park negotiations because they are required by law to negotiate toward an agreement with USAPA.

USAPA will proceed full speed ahead to negotiate an industry standard contract with fair seniority provisions that fulfill the union DFR and CBA obligations to all pilots. If the company refuses to negotiate in good faith or makes any attempt to utilize the Nic list USAPA will execute the strike plan assuming 50% + 1 of the voting members authorize the strike.

Considering how destructive and costly the alternatives such as a long strike would be the most likely and simplest solution would be separate but equal industry standard contracts with the same status quo DOH seniority provisions we operate under now.

underpants

Boy underpants,

I'm sure you've parker's knees shaking and peeing in his underpants with the fear usapa/lee seham brings with a threat quote 50% + 1 strike vote!.....

usapa will be parked by the NMB guaranteed.

Otter

 

[nic4us]

fodase,

The AZ district court will dismiss the DJ because they don't have jurisdiction to hear the complaint. Of course the company can be sued....the company can be sued by anyone for any reason at any time. The company does not have a DFR obligation to the pilots. History shows unions always win DFR lawsuits with very few exceptions. The company can not use the threat of a lawsuit as an excuse to park negotiations because they are required by law to negotiate toward an agreement with USAPA.

USAPA will proceed full speed ahead to negotiate an industry standard contract with fair seniority provisions that fulfill the union DFR and CBA obligations to all pilots. If the company refuses to negotiate in good faith or makes any attempt to utilize the Nic list USAPA will execute the strike plan assuming 50% + 1 of the voting members authorize the strike.

Considering how destructive and costly the alternatives such as a long strike would be the most likely and simplest solution would be separate but equal industry standard contracts with the same status quo DOH seniority provisions we operate under now.

underpants

A couple of incorrect assumptions and...how do I put this....Seehamesque....no that is not it......Clearyphrenic.....no, not right either....oh..I know....Bradfordisms in that post underpants.

First, the company most certainly can use the threat of a lawsuit to take a position off the negotiating table. Just as they can tell usapa their crew meal demand is too high, they can tell usapa they do not want to stray from the Nic. It would be up to the NMB to either release or park, and with the history usapa has, IMO they are more likely to get parked.

Second, most agree that the case will be dismissed, but not if Siegel produces the case history he says he has, so that Silver can latch on to something, and send Seeham to school again on what the 9th's opinion states. (not ripe, come up with something the West won't sue you over, or suffer "pain of unquestionably ripe DFR")

Finally, If by saying "usapa will continue full steam ahead", you mean usapa will continue down their already proven guilty by jury trial DFR road of DOH with C&Rs, well, continue down that road by yourselves, the rest of us are tired of telling you that you are not getting DOH.

Your simple solution of seperate contracts....hmmm...there is a history of seperate but equal in this country......that will not fly either.

To sum, it is usapa who is not negotiating in good faith, and the entire world is aware of it. Enjoy the NMB parking lot, LOA93, and that captain seat you stole a couple months early.

 

[Captain Underpants]

First, the company most certainly can use the threat of a lawsuit to take a position off the negotiating table. Just as they can tell usapa their crew meal demand is too high, they can tell usapa they do not want to stray from the Nic.

Second, most agree that the case will be dismissed.....

Nic4

I agree with both points above. The company does not have to agree to anything it doesn't want to and the DJ will be dismissed. The company obviously has a primary fiduciary responsibility that drives its actions. In short the company is a thing that cares only about maximizing profit. Trying to maintain below average pilots costs as a business plan is unsustainable. It has been tried as a management strategy before and always leads to failure.

Seniority is a relatively easy problem to solve because it should not cost or benefit any interested party. There are several seniority solutions that USAPA and the company can jointly craft that guarantee the company, the union and the pilots zero cost on the seniority issue and prevent a costly strike.

You have to look at the variables. Because of the pilot demographics here a temporary seniority solution is a permanent seniority solution. The company can accept DOH or not accept DOH. It makes no difference because In either case we continue with the status quo of DOH.

underpants

 

[nic4us]

Nic4

I agree with both points above. The company does not have to agree to anything it doesn't want to and the DJ will be dismissed. The company obviously has a primary fiduciary responsibility that drives its actions. In short the company is a thing that cares only about maximizing profit. Trying to maintain below average pilots costs as a business plan is unsustainable. It has been tried as a management strategy before and always leads to failure.

Seniority is a relatively easy problem to solve because it should not cost or benefit any interested party. There are several seniority solutions that USAPA and the company can jointly craft that guarantee the company, the union and the pilots zero cost on the seniority issue and prevent a costly strike.

You have to look at the variables. Because of the pilot demographics here a temporary seniority solution is a permanent seniority solution. The company can accept DOH or not accept DOH. It makes no difference because In either case we continue with the status quo of DOH.

underpants

The company to date has maintained a position of neutrality. As Parker has said, "it is up to you guys to decide". If the company changes their stance, and becomes willing to help usapa craft a new seniority list, then they are certainly guilty of colluding with or at least complicit with usapa's renegeing on the Nic. After Siegel's presentation yesterday, I do not think the company is willing to go there.

The simple fact of the matter is no court of law will undermine binding arbitration. For as long as the West pilots desire, the result of the arbitration is the only seniority list in play. The west is content to stay in the staus quo of the "temporary seniority solution", because it means the usapa solution will never see the light of day, whether crafted with or without the company's assistance.

We will only continue with the status quo until either the company no longer wishes to remain seperate or the east no longer wishes to remain seperate. There are plenty of surprises coming down the sewer pipe that could hasten one or both sides desire to conclude the merger, get a JCBA, and implement the Nic. But all roads to a JCBA are paved with the Nic.


Here is a question for you. Do you agree with Seeham when he told judge Silver that the company is litigating in bad faith as a means to cause delay?

 

[Reed Richards]

The simple fact of the matter is no court of law will undermine binding arbitration.

Here is a question for you. Do you agree with Seeham when he told judge Silver that the company is litigating in bad faith as a means to cause delay?

Of course no court would touch binding arbitration. Keep stomping your feet, it was not binding arbitration. Nic is dead, and even its ghost (the one you won’t give up) will eventually be retired with another trip to the Ninth.

My own company litigating in bad faith?..would not touch that with a ten foot pole on a public forum. But I have to note what fine and competent lawyer Siegel is..he knows his way around the Ninth, and RLA in general. And he has done the time, very well known in labor law circles. He has to know the end result is we are still free to negotiate on any section as we see fit. He has to know the Company is under the rule of law to negotiate in good faith. Thus I can come to no other conclusion..it is a legal and very well played delay tactic being used by the Company.

My prediction.....Silver dismisses, Parker appeals to the Ninth. Nothing else. We simply wait.

RR

 

[767jetz]

********************************************
we all knew wiht the vote of USAPA that this was going to be a long process... No surprise here....

Such BS. You guys said from the onset that DOH was a slam dunk. Nic was dead. You'll have a DOH contract in no time. You were going so far as to buy your DOH with a sub-standard contract.

Now the courts are still talking to Addington and talking about Nic (so much for being dead), and suddenly you claim you "knew it would be a long process."

If USAPA had campaigned on the promise that avoiding binding arbitration would mean remaining indefinitely on LOA93, and at the very least 5+ years, they would have never been elected as the CBA.

But go ahead and keep on revising history as you go.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Unfortunately, one's career expectations change whenever there is a merger.

WOW!!!!!!! It's been a long time since I posted but... I just couldn't let this slip by. Say it again and again and again and again.... Oh! And tell your buddies out east as well!