US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

"Union-busting is a practice that is undertaken by an employer or their agents to prevent employees from........."

My point exactly, lets break this definition down to who and what is being defined. The who is the employer or their agents and the employees, the what is all the rest of the definition.

For a union (any union) to be guilty of "Union-busting", said union, lets say APA, would have to be guilty of acting as an agent for and colluding with the management at American to oust ALPA. I haven't heard all the conspiracy theories floating around out there, but I definitely haven't heard that one.

In the case of UseLessAirways, are you suggesting that "Dougie" got in bed with USAPA to get rid of ALPA? Made some kind of a side deal? Proof of that would make for a great lawsuit! Not to mention seeing a picture of "Dougie" in the rack with USAPA leadership at the Motel 6 in CLT. :huh:

seajay

Watch the Seeham video leonidas linked.

Seeham clearly states, we will offer them a cost nuetral contract in order to get labor peace from our 2/3 of the pilots. i.e. we can make a deal with the company to ditch the Nic and renege, but we have to bust the union to do it. Being accustomed to working the other side in the past, Seeham knows all about union busting.

The PHL ALPA reps had to be put into trusteeship because they were breaking the law, practicing dual unionism, using ALPA resources to promote usapa.

AWA320 is right.

 

[OTTER574]

Watch the Seeham video leonidas linked.

Seeham clearly states, we will offer them a cost nuetral contract in order to get labor peace from our 2/3 of the pilots. i.e. we can make a deal with the company to ditch the Nic and renege, but we have to bust the union to do it. Being accustomed to working the other side in the past, Seeham knows all about union busting.

The PHL ALPA reps had to be put into trusteeship because they were breaking the law, practicing dual unionism, using ALPA resources to promote usapa.

AWA320 is right.

And this is what scares me the most about the east. How selective ignorance they're of things going on within their own union.

OTTER

 

[Zone5]

I'm confused too? Why would a company go along with usapa's illegal scheme and hang it's derriere out for a major lawsuit?

Per the TA, a ratified contract means the NIC.

OTTER

I guess, that depends on how the powers that be (the courts) and at this point, that means however Judge Silver rules on the company's DJ. If she ends up requiring the company to "go along" with USAPA, they would have to. Then again, at that point the company will have successfully, covered its ass with the DJ, unless Judge Silver tosses the whole thing as somehow not ripe (or whatever; remember she does have an option #4) then the company might still be left twisting in the wind.

Nice Otter, always have dreamed about flying one of those up in Alaska on amphibian floats! Now that's flying.

seajay

 

[Zone5]

I don't think he 'got in bed' with usapa in a manner of back room deals and that sort of thing. But I do think he got the union he wanted. All he had to do was watch it unfold, all the while being playing 'neutral'. Prater allowed the process to gain steam, and Dougie was more than happy to let it happen. Just my own lowly opinion, as likely to be wrong as it is to be right.

That's an interesting take on it. I never considered that "Dougie" might have somehow preferred USAPA over ALPA, seems a little out there in the "conspiracy theory" realm, then again, I guess a case could be made that the company has benefited from this mess being drawn out as long as possible, while the pilots are all paid sub-standard wages. Could be.

seajay

 

[OTTER574]

I guess, that depends on how the powers that be (the courts) and at this point, that means however Judge Silver rules on the company's DJ. If she ends up requiring the company to "go along" with USAPA, they would have to. Then again, at that point the company will have successfully, covered its ass with the DJ, unless Judge Silver tosses the whole thing as somehow not ripe (or whatever; remember she does have an option #4) then the company might still be left twisting in the wind.

Nice Otter, always have dreamed about flying one of those up in Alaska on amphibian floats! Now that's flying.

seajay

So does usapa want the DJ from the company to go forward or does usapa not want DJ to go forward? usapa legal briefs are confusing me. usapa has asked for dismissal of this company case, have they not?

Name a Federal Judge/jury that has required a company to "go along" with a rogue union and require said company to accept an ILLEGAL LIST in these regards?

Most likely I think this case will get dismissed. Hope then the company will tell usapa to pound sand.

Company has a LEGAL LIST accepted called the NIC..union (name) please and by all means sue the company for acceptance of a LEGAL LIST!

OTTER

 

[nic4us]

I guess, that depends on how the powers that be (the courts) and at this point, that means however Judge Silver rules on the company's DJ. If she ends up requiring the company to "go along" with USAPA, they would have to.

seajay

My whole premise to the STFD attitude is that usapa is not going to get a contract at all. The only way usapa will get a contract is if it includes the Nic in section 22. Since they are hostile to that idea, it means no contract.

If Silver does not dismiss, I believe the answeres to the questions asked will be straight forward.

1. Do we have to negotiate with usapa....Ans...yes.
2. Can the West then sue us.....Ans...yes.
3. Can we get immunity.......talk about not ripe, answere, no.

In this position the company will not budge on the Nic, usapa will ask for release, the mediator will tell usapa to go pound sand and sit in the corner parked until they would like to revisit their obligation to the West pilots and the Nic. usapa will be happy to oblige thinking they are in control forcing seperate ops. Meanwhile the company will pull the plug on any TA guarantees and start doing whatever they want, having successfully busted the union.

 

[LSS]

WHAT IS

Union Busting?



Union-busting is a practice that is undertaken by an employer or their agents to prevent employees from joining a labor union, or to disempower, subvert, or destroy unions that already exist.

Union busting is a field populated by bullies and built on deceit. A campaign against a union is an assault on individuals and a war on truth. As such, it is a war without honor. The only way to bust a union is to lie, distort, manipulate, threaten, and always, always attack.


Martin Jay Levitt, 1993, Confessions of a Union Buster

AWA320

You just perfectly described yourself and your cohorts precisely... Thanks... at least you've finally admitted it... you are the UNION BUSTING SCAB!

 

[sumadarson]

America West Pilot update

" "Leonidas Update January 10. 2011

This morning the Supreme Court officially denied our Petition for Certiorari. Although not unexpected, the decision is of course disappointing. As a result of this decision, the big question on everybody’s mind is “What does this all mean?”

By denying our petition, the Supreme Court basically affirmed the Ninth Court of Appeals decision in regard to ripeness, without ruling or commenting on any of the other eight issues of the case raised by USAPA in its appeal. This, in turn, means that, from a judicial standpoint, the big questions surrounding the seniority dispute remain unanswered.

Depending on future developments in the company’s Request for a Declatory Judgement, the net result is that we are back at square one, where USAPA will have to negotiate a new Tentative Agreement after which we will go back to court for DFR round two (with the knowledge that DFRI was resolved in favor of the Addington Plaintiffs, and that this time around ripeness will not be an issue)

Through the Addington litigation, Leonidas has attempted from Day One to expediently resolve the seniority dispute, so that the pilot group as a whole can move on and obtain the industry-leading contract we all deserve. The sad truth is that today’s decision by the Supreme Court is a loss for ALL USAirways pilots as it means that there will be no definitive solution, and no joint contract for a long time to come.

Stand by for a more in-depth update coming soon.

Sincerely,

Leonidas LLC " "

 

[Zone5]

So does usapa want the DJ from the company to go forward or does usapa not want DJ to go forward? usapa legal briefs are confusing me. usapa has asked for dismissal of this company case, have they not?

Name a Federal Judge/jury that has required a company to "go along" with a rogue union and require said company to accept an ILLEGAL LIST in these regards?

Most likely I think this case will get dismissed. Hope then the company will tell usapa to pound sand.

Company has a LEGAL LIST accepted called the NIC..union (name) please and by all means sue the company for acceptance of a LEGAL LIST!

OTTER

Me too, it's all very confusing! I have to read all these legal documents/opinions/briefs several times to feel like I understand what is being said. That having been said, my take is that USAPA would just as soon the company had not filed the DJ. Primarily because it just makes for more delay in the JCBA negotiation/mediation process, which is just fine with the company. It is my understanding that USAPA has asked that the DJ be dismissed.

The fact of the matter is that USAPA is not a "rogue" union, regardless of ones opinion of them, they are the legally designated bargaining agent for the pilots of UseLessAirways. Any seniority list scheme that USAPA proffers in negotiations with the company would not be "illegal" unless either Judge Silver says it is or until a DFR-II is concluded ruling it so. The company really doesn't care for the most part, "Dougie" has even said it could be alphabetical for all he cares, as long as it doesn't result in dramatically increased training costs and embroil them in expensive future litigation, which is why they filed the DJ to shield them against liability.

Your guess is as good as mine, about the outcome of the DJ. The company cannot tell USAPA to "pound sand". The company must continue to negotiate until such time as a new JCBA is reached or the mediator declares an impasse. That's the process, I'm not making this stuff up, like it or not.

The "legality" of the NIC is not the issue at this point, as the 9th Court of Appeals has ruled & the SCOTUS has concurred, USAPA is free to negotiate a JCBA with the company until they reach agreement and a contract is ratified or the parties are released for self-help. The duty and responsibility is on USAPA to negotiate a contract that would survive DFR-II or suffer the consequences.

seajay

 

[mikey60]

That is the big deception that keeps ALPA going. They control by sound bite, fanciful phrases and a constitution/by-law structure that insures the elite, and only the elite, can make policy decisions. This clever framework disempowers the line pilot at every turn, and the ONLY way for the line pilot to have a true effect is by banding together and dumping them.

Yes, ALPA did NOT directly ratify LOA 93, or the other myriad abominations to which we were subjected. However, they had exclusive use of their "experts" and "lawyers," as well as the bullhorn of bulls***, to scare the bejeezes out of the rank and file, thus all but guaranteeing the result THEY wanted for the benefit of the mother ship. The members be damned.

While they loved to say to us: "YOU are ALPA," the reality was very different.

and PLEASE dont forget that all important world renouned magazine.

 

[mikey60]

Sorry to pop your bubble oldie, but this corrupt union called usapa is not in the drivers seat on this. You east pilots should've listened to ex alpa east mec slappen jack stephen.

Anytime lcc management, east/alpa and east/usapa pilots are in front of a neutral arbitrator/federal judge or a jury, the truth somehow floats to the top.

OTTER

Maybe you otter read the last 500 posts, there is no alpa, jacks off the alpa position, there was but no longer is a jury, and whale sh## sinks.

 

[fodase]

January 13, 2011 marks the 1,000th day of USAPA. (That's 33 months or almost 3 years) And how much better off we all are. -Sarcasm caution-

Interestingly enough, the mythical "impasse" that USAPA said it would break only lasted 235 days.

Pop Quiz: How many of these promises have been kept:

Update, April 16, 2008.

How can USAPA negotiate a much needed improved contract sooner than ALPA?

Simply stated USAPA removes the seniority integration impediment to the process of negotiating the much needed pay raise and contractual quality of life improvements, and USAPA does it on two important related fronts.

First – By replacing the two deadlocked MECs with one BPR (Board of Pilot Reps), the leadership impediment is dissolved.

* Second – By replacing an East/West dual pilot ratification process, doomed to failure on one side or the other, with a single combined East/West pilot group ratification process.

After the NMB election, when USAPA inherits the current contracts and the right to negotiate with the company on behalf of the US Airways pilots, USAPA will have a team of professional negotiators in place who will have a pilot negotiating advisory committee available to assist them.

We only ask that you look at what ALPA does, not what they say. ALPA has had 31 months to achieve contract improvements, yet has not even managed pay parity.



USAPA NEWS FOR CHANGE
CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS

You will see a joint agreement, with better economics,
sooner under USAPA than under ALPA

Inside ALPA, the only issue preventing a ratifiable joint contract is the existence of two MECs, and therefore mandatory dual-ratification. This is the “stalemate” you’ve heard about, a stalemate that’s been going on now for 2 ½ years.

USAPA will remove this impediment and will promptly enter into negotiations with management for a quality contract. The Award, rendered moot as a result of ALPA’s decertification, plays no roll.

Management has stated it is “willing to commit significant financial resources and time” towards a pilot contract, but it must be jointly for the East and West.

Under USAPA, contract negotiations will begin in short order. Under ALPA, given the ALPA stalemate, a ratifiable contract could take years, if it happens at all.

Under USAPA, a contract tentative agreement will go out to both the East and West pilots for a majority vote with a good chance of success if it is a quality contract – money in our pockets.

Press Release 09/11/07

USAPA is the new union designed to represent the interests of US Airways Pilots and no other. This new union has been designed “from the pilot up,” to deliver competent, accountable, responsive and efficient representation for the US Airways pilots.

Update 02/04/2008

The Difference Between USAPA and ALPA

At USAPA, the interests of the pilots are what matters. Here, ALPA National makes it absolutely clear, the “interests of the pilots” and the “interests of the Association” are not synonymous.

So disconnected are both the sender and recipients of the letter in question that they are happy to utilize pilots’ resources against the pilots, yet display concern when the pilots might utilize their own resources for their own betterment and to make their will known. Succinctly, the resources discussed belong to the pilots; there is no confusion about this within USAPA.

Mr. Cleary’s message when appointed interim EVP, April 14, 2008:


“The first steps in the process will be to create an environment encouraging open and vigorous debate on the significant issues before us. It also my great hope that we will leave behind the personalizing and vilification of individuals that has been emblematic of many of our failures in the past. I commit to all US Airways Pilots, east and west, that I will use all of my resources to cause the debate to focus on the issues, not the people. I expect and will work diligently to pursue the pilots’ issues with vigor and conviction including a more business-like attitude than we have witnessed in the past”.

Mr. Cleary’s message when he resigned as ALPA Grievance Committee Vice-Chair, March 10, 2008:,

In his resignation letter to the MEC Chairman, Captain Cleary stated (in part), "For every minute that those of us who are mindful remain in ALPA office after such a record serves only to sanction this corrupt process and horrific mugging of the US Airways pilots’ rights to representation. I am embarrassed by our National Officers and the Executive Council. No organization that would stoop to such a level can be trusted. ALPA, in its desperation to hang on to the US Airways pilots’ dues revenue, has committed the final atrocity for me. I can no longer, in good conscience, support such an organization."

President’s Message, March 21, 2008:

The reason I bring this issue up is that USAPA has attracted pilots from all corners, regardless of their stand on particular issues or whether or not they served in ALPA and whether they were 'Republican' or 'Democrat.' USAPA is a movement among the US Airways pilots that rises well above the politics and will certainly bode well for the US Airways pilots in the future. It is imperative that USAPA incorporates the diversity, for when diverse groups come together for a common goal, positive results are produced.

USAPA Website FAQs:

What do you propose for the new union?

We have created a union, a pilot's union, that is run by the line pilot. Top priority is the line pilot at US Airways, not a National agenda. USAPA’s Constitution provides for a participatory democracy, which is run by the line pilots.

What can USAPA do for a West pilot that's better?

More democratic, Direct election of officers, More control over financial matters, and pilot ratification of all contracts and side letters is required; more thorough and timely communication, Constitution with a pilot Bill of Rights, No more gravy train for Reps;........ As soon as possible, web cams and conference calls for virtual attendance and later viewing.... And most importantly, an independent, carrier-specific union with only the interests of US Airways pilots in mind..

 

[sumadarson]

They are UNION BUSTING SCABS with no honor or integrity. They are lower than the lowest form of excrement and as such we need not converse with the likes of them. They parade around with badges stating UNION PILOT when in reality it should read UNION BUSTING SCAB.

Turn your back on them, dont converse with them dont engage them. They seek validation for which there is none for UNION BUSTING SCABS!! Usapa holds their leashes and controls their involvement on these boards. NO HONOR NO INTEGRITY!

AWA320

I hope someone that knows you will calm you down. Your series of posts today are troubling to say the least. Ask a friend or family member their advice on this please, for your own good. They will probably tell you I am the bad guy, that is fine. Just ask, their assessment will probably prove me wrong about the fact that you need to calm down.

 

[mikey60]

Well keep your bases covered, because if by some miracle usapa gets a DOH contract ratified, LCC won't be around long enough to fire the pilots that shut the operation down.

Then you can have your 2005 career expectation back.

O.K. I give in, I've looked at this but cant understand why if DOH is ratified LCC will go under. Wawwaw320,you and the otter 16 losers of the magic 18 will join the UA team and live in bliss forever. The east will be fine without you.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

That's an interesting take on it. I never considered that "Dougie" might have somehow preferred USAPA over ALPA, seems a little out there in the "conspiracy theory" realm, then again, I guess a case could be made that the company has benefited from this mess being drawn out as long as possible, while the pilots are all paid sub-standard wages. Could be.

seajay

Dougie couldn't give a crap about either east pilots or west pilots, I doubt many of us would argue about that no matter what else we are at odds over. I figure he knew usapa was going to put us at each others throats, and one of two things would occur. Usapa would get date of hire at a discount for him, due to disunity, with the west pilots unable to put up a credible challenge. Or, usapa would pound it's own head against the company wall and get no where, once again, due to disunity.

Either way, he doesn't give a rats ass. He's gotten what he was after, at all of our expense.