US Pilots Labor Discussion
- Thread starter Richard
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Move2CLT
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- #39,860
You are mistaken. The only boat that has sailed is your S.S. DOH and that sank an hour after it left. It hit an iceberg called the Nicolau.
The imminent use of the Nic is driving the easties insane as they see their "union" fading away and the inevitability of having to settle into their Nic awarded spots.
CLT in 2014 ClaxoMM!!!
lynyrdskynyrd
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- Apr 22, 2005
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Parker may have said that. But that's not what the term sheet says. As far as LCC goes,I saw the phrase 'best effort.' We all know how to interpret that, as well as what he says. I suspect you're right about no furloughs being necessary though.
That's how I read it as well. I couldn't possibly care any less what's "said" by anyone....Let's see it in writing. Any promised "protections" that currently exist in written form are exclusive to the APA folks.
I honestly wish I could share your confidence in that Ames....but....if there's an opportunity to have immense savings in wages...well...I'm not at all so sure it won't be exploited to the fullest. Why wouldn't they? I'd think it would be evaluated based on what costs are associated with having the US side fenced off, versus what savings would come from doing so. "The right thing to do" is laughable as any argument, based on years of history with the AFA as well as the pilot group. I offer the existing example of west-east seperate ops and payroll savings as case in point. A lot of "well...ummm..it depends" seems to still be in play.
May 12, 2012 UPDATE
[font=&]Phoenix Pilots: This PHX final update that we have been batting around for the past 3 days. This update was sent to USAPA’s James Ray @ 1545 CT with the statement that if it was not published verbatim, I would personally publish it by other electronic means after 1700 CT. The previous versions were edited by James Ray. In a previous version we requested that President Hummel simply place asterisks in place of the material HE deemed untrue so that we could address those areas of concern, yet at the close of business this week, we have only now received THEIR version of our update, we find this unacceptable. BTW: this update is essentially the same update.[/font]
[font=&]We understand our predecessors regularly dealt with this sort of censorship and we were hopeful that USAPA's new president would ensure the greater transparency which he promised. So far, we are not finding this to be the case as we continue to experience difficulty in having our updates published as written. [/font]
[font=&]Our Phoenix-based pilots are entitled to hear from their representatives in a timely fashion, especially in these fast-moving times. Efforts by the association to once again MANAGE our expectations in accordance with its USAPA worldview will not be tolerated by your PHX reps. To reiterate, the message which follows solely reflects the opinions of your Phoenix representatives, amounts to an “unofficial update,” HAS NOT “been approved by USAPA,” and may not reflect the official position of the union.[/font]
[font=&]Thank you for your patience while your representatives deal with the obstacles USAPA has placed in our path.[/font]
[font=&]Phoenix Pilots: This PHX final update that we have been batting around for the past 3 days. This update was sent to USAPA’s James Ray @ 1545 CT with the statement that if it was not published verbatim, I would personally publish it by other electronic means after 1700 CT. The previous versions were edited by James Ray. In a previous version we requested that President Hummel simply place asterisks in place of the material HE deemed untrue so that we could address those areas of concern, yet at the close of business this week, we have only now received THEIR version of our update, we find this unacceptable. BTW: this update is essentially the same update.[/font]
[font=&]We understand our predecessors regularly dealt with this sort of censorship and we were hopeful that USAPA's new president would ensure the greater transparency which he promised. So far, we are not finding this to be the case as we continue to experience difficulty in having our updates published as written. [/font]
[font=&]Our Phoenix-based pilots are entitled to hear from their representatives in a timely fashion, especially in these fast-moving times. Efforts by the association to once again MANAGE our expectations in accordance with its USAPA worldview will not be tolerated by your PHX reps. To reiterate, the message which follows solely reflects the opinions of your Phoenix representatives, amounts to an “unofficial update,” HAS NOT “been approved by USAPA,” and may not reflect the official position of the union.[/font]
[font=&]Thank you for your patience while your representatives deal with the obstacles USAPA has placed in our path.[/font]
Brothers and Sisters of the Phoenix Domicile,
We appreciate the attention that the Negotiating ADVISORY Committee (NAC) has garnered as a result of their travels to DFW. Phoenix-based pilots have been ready, willing, and able to participate in the negotiating process for the last few years, but have been unable to do so on terms acceptable to the West. Now, the prospective AA merger, when combined with a new USAPA President has suddenly created a new opportunity for the pilots of PHX.
Our newly appointed Phoenix-based (NAC) members were present in the negotiating session between the APA and US Airways management for only a short time on Tuesday (about an hour), yet were completely left out on Wednesday. They did speak with several APA leaders while waiting to be admitted to the meeting (which they were not) but did manage to make some important connections.
The ongoing negotiation process is not what you may be thinking; no party is engaged in “Section 6 Negotiations” (per the RLA), nor is any party currently negotiating a “joint contract” like we were when previously engaged with the old US Airways pilots and management. Those negotiation have been “parked” by the NMB.
US Airways is apparently in the process of negotiating only with APA (the Allied Pilots Association) for a collective bargaining agreement that only includes the present-day AA pilots. US Airways management IS NOT NEGOTIATING with USAPA, or the pilots presently employed by US Airways – PERIOD.
If a merger between US Airways and American Airlines in consummated, then AFTER AA emerges from bankruptcy, the company plans to combine the “New AA” with the ”New” US Airways. Keep in mind that “combine” has two different meanings for labor and for management.
Presently, the company sees no reason to negotiate with the US Airways pilots, and judging from the statements from our counterparts in Texas, the APA apparently feels that it is THEIR CONTRACT to negotiate, and is of little concern to either the East, or the West pilots of US Airways. This is also made clear from the language in the APA/US Airways term sheet.
After the companies merge, the new airline's management will enter into negotiations for a Transition Agreement, but only with the APA. Subsequent to the transition agreement negotiations, there will be a filing by the APA to the National Mediation Board no later than 60 days after the merger which will seek to certify the APA as the single collective bargaining agent for all pilots of the New AA. According to the plain language of the Term Sheet, only after the APA (or whatever association prevails) is certified as the sole collective bargaining agent will East/West pilots enter into the equation. Presumably the APA will begin negotiating a contract that covers all pilots at the New AA and, although we are speculating here, it seems likely that US Airways pilots will have two choices: 1) accept the APA’s contract over which they are currently negotiating with Parker; or, 2) enter into an additional round of negotiations for a combined contract that covers East, West and present-day AA pilots. In other words, there may be a few more years of C2004 and LOA93 while the APA pilots work under the new contract with its superior wages to either East or West contract.
So where does that leave us? It is our intention and hope that we can get the APA leadership to see the wisdom in soliciting assistance from our many West “Subject Matter Experts” (SMEs) to help educate them on the important facets of our contract which clearly is the basis for several important sections of AA's Conditional Labor Agreement, specifically PBS. We feel that all pilots under the combined airline will benefit from former AWA pilot input as the new AA contract (particularly work rules) will reportedly be based on many of the progressive/flexible work rules that the West pilots now have. CONSIDER ALSO that there is one more obstacle to getting West SME’s to Dallas – the three PHX representatives have zero control over who gets removed from the flight schedule in order to conduct union work.
Ladies and Gentlemen, please remember that your three PHX Representatives have a small voice, and only THREE VOTES out of Eleven on the BPR. It is only our known unity which amplifies the importance of our three votes and our limited influence within the Association. Usually, we don’t have the influence to even decide for USAPA what's for lunch at a BPR meeting. Our recommendations for the NAC positions were not made carelessly, nor in a vacuum, but your support of these individuals is critical at this time. Please maintain your status as a MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING in order to vote and allow PHX to keep our three BPR slots. Though it doesn't seem like much, it’s all we have now.
Thank you for your time and support.
John Scherff-PHX Chairman
Robert Velez – PHX V/C
David Simmons – PHX V/C
We appreciate the attention that the Negotiating ADVISORY Committee (NAC) has garnered as a result of their travels to DFW. Phoenix-based pilots have been ready, willing, and able to participate in the negotiating process for the last few years, but have been unable to do so on terms acceptable to the West. Now, the prospective AA merger, when combined with a new USAPA President has suddenly created a new opportunity for the pilots of PHX.
Our newly appointed Phoenix-based (NAC) members were present in the negotiating session between the APA and US Airways management for only a short time on Tuesday (about an hour), yet were completely left out on Wednesday. They did speak with several APA leaders while waiting to be admitted to the meeting (which they were not) but did manage to make some important connections.
The ongoing negotiation process is not what you may be thinking; no party is engaged in “Section 6 Negotiations” (per the RLA), nor is any party currently negotiating a “joint contract” like we were when previously engaged with the old US Airways pilots and management. Those negotiation have been “parked” by the NMB.
US Airways is apparently in the process of negotiating only with APA (the Allied Pilots Association) for a collective bargaining agreement that only includes the present-day AA pilots. US Airways management IS NOT NEGOTIATING with USAPA, or the pilots presently employed by US Airways – PERIOD.
If a merger between US Airways and American Airlines in consummated, then AFTER AA emerges from bankruptcy, the company plans to combine the “New AA” with the ”New” US Airways. Keep in mind that “combine” has two different meanings for labor and for management.
Presently, the company sees no reason to negotiate with the US Airways pilots, and judging from the statements from our counterparts in Texas, the APA apparently feels that it is THEIR CONTRACT to negotiate, and is of little concern to either the East, or the West pilots of US Airways. This is also made clear from the language in the APA/US Airways term sheet.
After the companies merge, the new airline's management will enter into negotiations for a Transition Agreement, but only with the APA. Subsequent to the transition agreement negotiations, there will be a filing by the APA to the National Mediation Board no later than 60 days after the merger which will seek to certify the APA as the single collective bargaining agent for all pilots of the New AA. According to the plain language of the Term Sheet, only after the APA (or whatever association prevails) is certified as the sole collective bargaining agent will East/West pilots enter into the equation. Presumably the APA will begin negotiating a contract that covers all pilots at the New AA and, although we are speculating here, it seems likely that US Airways pilots will have two choices: 1) accept the APA’s contract over which they are currently negotiating with Parker; or, 2) enter into an additional round of negotiations for a combined contract that covers East, West and present-day AA pilots. In other words, there may be a few more years of C2004 and LOA93 while the APA pilots work under the new contract with its superior wages to either East or West contract.
So where does that leave us? It is our intention and hope that we can get the APA leadership to see the wisdom in soliciting assistance from our many West “Subject Matter Experts” (SMEs) to help educate them on the important facets of our contract which clearly is the basis for several important sections of AA's Conditional Labor Agreement, specifically PBS. We feel that all pilots under the combined airline will benefit from former AWA pilot input as the new AA contract (particularly work rules) will reportedly be based on many of the progressive/flexible work rules that the West pilots now have. CONSIDER ALSO that there is one more obstacle to getting West SME’s to Dallas – the three PHX representatives have zero control over who gets removed from the flight schedule in order to conduct union work.
Ladies and Gentlemen, please remember that your three PHX Representatives have a small voice, and only THREE VOTES out of Eleven on the BPR. It is only our known unity which amplifies the importance of our three votes and our limited influence within the Association. Usually, we don’t have the influence to even decide for USAPA what's for lunch at a BPR meeting. Our recommendations for the NAC positions were not made carelessly, nor in a vacuum, but your support of these individuals is critical at this time. Please maintain your status as a MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING in order to vote and allow PHX to keep our three BPR slots. Though it doesn't seem like much, it’s all we have now.
Thank you for your time and support.
John Scherff-PHX Chairman
Robert Velez – PHX V/C
David Simmons – PHX V/C
Freighterguynow
Veteran
- Jan 5, 2004
- 1,276
- 1,207
The Chinese pay top dollar and get quality to go with it. No, I see Cambodia in your future.
Unless you love that desert lifestyle so much...
Haseet mipents
Sir, where is the men's room?
See, you've got leg up already with what you'll need !
"...the APA apparently feels that it is THEIR CONTRACT to negotiate, and is of little concern to either the East, or the West pilots of US Airways............... Keep in mind that “combine” has two different meanings for labor and for management."
Anyone still just all filled up with warm fuzzies about all this?
Freighterguynow
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- Jan 5, 2004
- 1,276
- 1,207
So Westies how do you see you White Knight riding to the Nic rescue?
Honestly, one week into it and the PHX reps are bashing the APA - you are poison.
lynyrdskynyrd
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- Apr 22, 2005
- 1,182
- 558
No. But welcome to our world.
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