US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

2) You're damn right we are outraged over losing our pension and if you are not outraged then you should be just as any hard working American when their pension is mishandled and mismanaged would be!

3) Are you saying we should like LOA 93?

So the East wants credit for saving the company, claim they saved it expecting to be repaid with attrition induced movement, yet didn't want to save the company and are in fact outraged about saving the company. You're right, I see how things really are and they are just as I said.

Jim

 

[767jetz]

Curious, what did Northwest/Delta do?

Slotting/relative seniority derived through negotiation, mediation and finally binding arbitration.

How did that work out?

Very well. There is no civil war. Pilots are generally happy with the results. No one gained or lost more than 3% of their relative seniority.

Why are they flying together already?

Because they captured the opportunity to leverage the synergies the company wanted into a good contract that benefited everyone. Therefore the merger was closed, a joint contract in place and seniority resolved in an expeditious manner.

Why are we Different?

In a word... USAPA. Most significantly, the biggest reason is that you guys did the seniority before the Joint CBA. That's putting the cart before the horse, and allowed the east, and particularly the east junior f/o's who stand to gain the most from weaseling out of binding arbitration, the opportunity to derail the entire process and land everyone in the purgatory of endless litigation.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Ah, the moral thing again.

I see it as more human nature's dark side than morals. Any time there is a "pie" to split up, and in this case the "pie" is seniority, there'll be those that will have lots of justifications for why they should have the bigger slice. Most of the AA pilots probably thought that the deal they gave the TWA pilots was eminently fair. Some portion of the Air Wisconsin pilots thought that the arbitrators decision was patently unfair and sought a way around it.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Curious, what did Northwest/Delta do?


How did that work out?


Why are they flying together already?



Why are we Different?

1)I think they had more than one arbitrator and learned from our mistake and completed a joint contract first, but not sure and don't really care.

2)Again, don't know, don't care.
3)See #2
4)Because we are sooooooooo much smarter than they are?

 

[Pi brat]

I see it as more human nature's dark side than morals. Any time there is a "pie" to split up, and in this case the "pie" is seniority, there'll be those that will have lots of justifications for why they should have the bigger slice. Most of the AA pilots probably thought that the deal they gave the TWA pilots was eminently fair. Some portion of the Air Wisconsin pilots thought that the arbitrators decision was patently unfair and sought a way around it.

Jim

I agree, but you said "And you find that strange?". I didn't find it strange, there are many east pilots that feel the same way, just very few F/Os, so I'm actually interested in his opinion. I know very few questions asked on here are actually questions, so I can see why one might think I was looking for something else, but I wasn't.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I know very few questions asked on here are actually questions, so I can see why one might think I was looking for something else, but I wasn't.

That's good enough for me.

Jim

 

[KTM300]

But you did say this:



What else could a person derive from this statement but the fact that you believe the east pilots deserve the right to move up rapidly since the east pilots allegedly "saved the company."

And as I reminder, I did not say that anyone saved anyone else. I did say for the sake of argument that you saved each other. That is the accepted vernacular on this forum, since the discussion you mention is forbidden.

Again, the east pilots are not entitled to everything since the east pilots did not save your airline. The merger of both airlines did.

MODERATOR COMMENT-- A POSTER'S TRUE IDENTITY IS NO ONE'S BUSINESS BUT THAT POSTER...YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHO CAN POST HERE......

DISCUSS THE POSTS AND NOT THE POSTERS--WE'RE NOT GOING TO REMIND YOU FOLKS AGAIN.

Who are you? Were do you come up with this stuff? You are like a professional spinmeister! Reread my post/reply to BB, then read your post to me, reread my reply/post then read your last post again.

You are right...anyone who rambles on like you do, couldn't possibly work here... unless of course you are in upper management

 

[traderjake]

TJ,
You are out of sync with about 98% of the F/Os I know. Could you explain why you feel the way you do? Do you think the Nic was fair? Do you think it doesn't matter because the process delivered it? You are entitled to feel the way you do, I'm just curious. Thanks.

The Nic award is basically fair. It's slotting by equipment and status. That's how the last three arbitrations, including Delta Northwest basically went. Everyone has the seniority to hold the same job after the merger as before.

The argument about putting a 2 years guy next to a 15 years guy is irrelevant. I'm a 25 year F/O because we shrunk from 400 to 230 airplanes while the West grew from 3 to 140 airplanes.

That's not the Wests' pilots faulty and no court is going to give me his job (which making me senior to him does) to make up for my lack of advancement.

You disagree with that position but what you can't disagree with is that's it's unethical to renege on a mutually agreed upon, legally binding arbitration because don't like the result.

 

[Run Like Hell]

Slotting/relative seniority derived through negotiation, mediation and finally binding arbitration.


Very well. There is no civil war. Pilots are generally happy with the results. No one gained or lost more than 3% of their relative seniority.


Because they captured the opportunity to leverage the synergies the company wanted into a good contract that benefited everyone. Therefore the merger was closed, a joint contract in place and seniority resolved in an expeditious manner.



In a word... USAPA. Most significantly, the biggest reason is that you guys did the seniority before the Joint CBA. That's putting the cart before the horse, and allowed the east, and particularly the east junior f/o's who stand to gain the most from weaseling out of binding arbitration, the opportunity to derail the entire process and land everyone in the purgatory of endless litigation.

Sounds fair, let's do it!!

 

[Pi brat]

The Nic award is basically fair. It's slotting by equipment and status. That's how the last three arbitrations, including Delta Northwest basically went. Everyone has the seniority to hold the same job after the merger as before.

The argument about putting a 2 years guy next to a 15 years guy is irrelevant. I'm a 25 year F/O because we shrunk from 400 to 230 airplanes while the West grew from 3 to 140 airplanes.

That's not the Wests' pilots faulty and no court is going to give me his job (which making me senior to him does) to make up for my lack of advancement.

You disagree with that position but what you can't disagree with is that's it's unethical to renege on a mutually agreed upon, legally binding arbitration because don't like the result.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it, but I'm not sure why you put words in my mouth.

 

[traderjake]

TJ,
You are out of sync with about 98% of the F/Os I know. Could you explain why you feel the way you do? Do you think the Nic was fair? Do you think it doesn't matter because the process delivered it? You are entitled to feel the way you do, I'm just curious. Thanks.

The Nic award is basically fair. It's slotting by equipment and status. That's how the last three arbitrations, including Delta Northwest basically went. Everyone has the seniority to hold the same job after the merger as before.

The argument about putting a 2 years guy next to a 15 years guy is irrelevant. I'm a 25 year F/O because we shrunk from 400 to 230 airplanes while the West grew from 3 to 140 airplanes.

That's not the Wests' pilots faulty and no court is going to give me his job (which making me senior to him does) to make up for my lack of advancement.

You disagree with that position but what you can't disagree with is that's it's unethical to renege on a mutually agreed upon, legally binding arbitration because don't like the result.

 

[traderjake]

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it, but I'm not sure why you put words in my mouth.

What words?

 

[Pi brat]

Are you Bill McKee because that's what he said I asked him how the Delta Northwest arbitration went?

He's my brother and we try to get our responses straight. I really don't care, it is irrelevant to our situation because we taught the world how not to do a merger, so they benefit from our dysfunction. Good for them, but I don't spend anytime thinking about it.

 

[Pi brat]

What words?

"You disagree with that position but what you can't disagree with is that's it's unethical to renege on a mutually agreed upon, legally binding arbitration because don't like the result." And you have done it before, making claims about what I believe. iIpointed out to you that you were wrong about what you said about me, but you failed to reply, or just said "I'm done"

 

[traderjake]

Sorry, my mistake. I did not mean you specifically.

I meant to say "You can disagree" and should have said "One can disagree".

Do you disagree with what I said?