US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

Just a reminder that remanded does not mean overturned. To be clear, it was remanded back to the court to be dismissed due to ripeness (not overturned). That is all. The Addington case does not simply disappear as if it never happened.

Yes I understand that a new case will have to turn on it's own merit and facts. There are is no way to guarantee success a second time. That doesn't mean it wouldn't have a VERY high probability of success. And USAPA knows this. With all the evidence from DFR #1 still valid, and considering the speed at which the first jury came to their conclusion, USAPA knows that DFR #2 will be an almost insurmountable hill to climb.

Well, a key ingredient will be missing to steer the whole crazed process. WAKE. The minute the process was steered out of the home turf, the train went immediately off the tracks.

 

[Black Swan]

No, you'll see Parker get very interested in stagnating the east and growing the west. The west will never willingly back down from the result of binding arbitration. Besides, if final and binding arbitration can be ignored or sidestepped, what would hold the company to actually honoring the arbitration on LOA93? They could just pull an east and stall forever.

How do you grow an operation that is in an area of economic downturn due to a massive housing crisis? And how do you stop attrition due to retirements?

 

[No Land Green]

The East sure tried, but with all this latest talk of compromise, it seems that the reality is setting in that seniority isn't like crew meals.

Again, the East has NEVER, EVER "tried" to "staple" the West in the Seniority Integration. The opposite is true and the numbers DO NOT lie.

"Staple" and "Strikebreakers" are two words that continually come from the West. The East does NOT have "Strikebreakers" on their Seniority List. Can the West say the same?

 

[Black Swan]

Just a reminder that remanded does not mean overturned. To be clear, it was remanded back to the court to be dismissed due to ripeness (not overturned). That is all. The Addington case does not simply disappear as if it never happened.

Yes I understand that a new case will have to turn on it's own merit and facts. There are is no way to guarantee success a second time. That doesn't mean it wouldn't have a VERY high probability of success. And USAPA knows this. With all the evidence from DFR #1 still valid, and considering the speed at which the first jury came to their conclusion, USAPA knows that DFR #2 will be an almost insurmountable hill to climb.

Hey Jetzzzzz How about the fact these friends out west helped damage the east by holding the pay down? That is going to be some fun counter argument when the boys try to cry their little damage mantra. How are you damaged when you had more vacation and pay for years, and try to cry damage? You aren't , and that is the best part!

 

[Black Swan]

No, you'll see Parker get very interested in stagnating the east and growing the west. The west will never willingly back down from the result of binding arbitration. Besides, if final and binding arbitration can be ignored or sidestepped, what would hold the company to actually honoring the arbitration on LOA93? They could just pull an east and stall forever.

Big difference between INTERNAL UNION DISPUTE and a disagreement between the company and its' labor. You'll find out shortly.

 

[Pi brat]

Wrong about what?

Oh no you are going to keep hearing from us until the east pilots are forced to live up to your agreements. Just what are "you" the east going to handle? There will be no contract for the next 12-24 months. Seham is going to spend another boatload of money fighting a losing battle. The only thing you guys are going to handle is defeat on a lot of issues very soon.

Your latest error was that the Wilson you listed was not inthe 517. Just one of many.

I never had any illusions that we wouldn't hear from you.

Seehan will enjoy your money as much as mine and you get to have AOL spend your extra money. Great way of moving ahead, huh?

You take care of yourself.

 

[cleardirect]

Again, the East has NEVER, EVER "tried" to "staple" the West in the Seniority Integration. The opposite is true and the numbers DO NOT lie.

"Staple" and "Strikebreakers" are two words that continually come from the West. The East does NOT have "Strikebreakers" on their Seniority List. Can the West say the same?

Another newbie with an old argument.

Once again here are the facts.

Seniorty number west pilots
1000 64
1500 111
2000 129
2500 231
3000 322
3500 573
4000 1048
4500 1252
5000 1688

As you can see that in the top 3000 positions on a DOH list only 322 west pilots. 10.7% The top 4000 west pilots only 1048 26.2%. I think you need to reconsider your definition.

Usapa DOH list would place 1500 west pilots BELOW east furloughed pilots. Only 340 west pilots would be anywhere near active pilots when this merger happened. 80% of west pilots would be STAPLED below furloughed east pilots. Check your facts do the math. Nicolau is not a staple.

 

[A320 Driver]

Besides, if final and binding arbitration can be ignored or sidestepped, what would hold the company to actually honoring the arbitration on LOA93? They could just pull an east and stall forever.

Like ACARS???

Company is winning that one. Company is stealing pay from pilots EVERY day and it's all being handled out of Tempe. Cheapest labor among the majors and the company won't even pay THAT.

Driver <_<

 

[Pi brat]

How do you grow an operation that is in an area of economic downturn due to a massive housing crisis? And how do you stop attrition due to retirements?

By letting them fly east routes.

You rememeber right after the merger the west had no 321s and the company put east metal on west flight and there was an uproar about the blacktops coming west and taking flying? Well, after the west got 321s, LAS mostly shutdown, and PHX shrunk where did those airplanes go? East routes. No more uproar, it's okay now! Typical west integrity.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Another newbie with an old argument.

Once again here are the facts.

Seniorty number west pilots
1000 64
1500 111
2000 129
2500 231
3000 322
3500 573
4000 1048
4500 1252
5000 1688

As you can see that in the top 3000 positions on a DOH list only 322 west pilots. 10.7% The top 4000 west pilots only 1048 26.2%. I think you need to reconsider your definition.

Usapa DOH list would place 1500 west pilots BELOW east furloughed pilots. Only 340 west pilots would be anywhere near active pilots when this merger happened. 80% of west pilots would be STAPLED below furloughed east pilots. Check your facts do the math. Nicolau is not a staple.

And Nicolau is not going away. It'll be the standard against which whatever USAPA comes up with will be measured against for purposes of DFR. It took a jury less than two hours to render their opinion. DFR II will be no different. Everyone outside of USAPA-Jonestown knows it. The company knows it, and they want total immunity from a federal court before even talking about something other than the Nicolau. It all came down to screwing the West and when that didn't work, now the AFO Club is onto screwing the guys sitting to their left who will retire now under LOA 93.

By letting them fly east routes.

700 furloughed East pilots have gotten their jobs back because of your being pulled out of BK by America West.

You rememeber right after the merger the west had no 321s and the company put east metal on west flight and there was an uproar about the blacktops coming west and taking flying?

The West had 145 airplanes with 15 more on order. Now we have our fleet minimum, 122, and we agreed to that on account of helping to get the AWA proposal accepted by the BK judge instead of what the Creditor's Committee was wanting the judge to do - liquidate US Air. It was all about good faith coming from the West to help save YOUR jobs. Look where it got us.

Typical west integrity.

See above.

 

[Pi brat]

And Nicolau is not going away. It'll be the standard against which whatever USAPA comes up with will be measured against for purposes of DFR. It took a jury less than two hours to render their opinion. DFR II will be no different.

Then why not get on with it? Why is AOL helping drag it out instead of getting a contract with DOH when it's case will be ripe and you can get on with the smackdown? Think about it, if you get a contract then a sucessful DFR, it's over and you can sue for all those damages you dream about. Get a ruling against DOH list before a contract and there is still a chance of a veto on voting for a joint contract. Put you money where your mouth is.

My post was correct. As for the rest, we are not supposed to talk about who saved who, so I will let those illusions go.

 

[cleardirect]

Then why not get on with it? Why is AOL helping drag it out instead of getting a contract with DOH when it's case will be ripe and you can get on with the smackdown? Think about it, if you get a contract then a sucessful DFR, it's over and you can sue for all those damages you dream about. Get a ruling against DOH list before a contract and there is still a chance of a veto on voting for a joint contract. Put you money where your mouth is.

My post was correct. As for the rest, we are not supposed to talk about who saved who, so I will let those illusions go.

How about accepting what you agreed to. If you think that your legal theory is correct. Than let's get a contract with the Nicolau in place. Then you guys file suit, and explain to the court why seniority and arbitration is negotiable.

It is not the west dragging this out. It is the east. How about you get a ruling against arbitration and see how that goes in court. Put your money where your mouth is.

We get a contract with Nicolau, get the raise. Then the east can put together an organization and collect money and sue the union using your own money. Let's try it that way.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Then why not get on with it? Why is AOL helping drag it out instead of getting a contract with DOH when it's case will be ripe and you can get on with the smackdown?

Ummm. Earth to PI....the company is the party that filed the declaratory action.

Think about it, if you get a contract then a sucessful DFR, it's over and you can sue for all those damages you dream about. Get a ruling against DOH list before a contract and there is still a chance of a veto on voting for a joint contract. Put you money where your mouth is.

See above.

My post was correct. As for the rest, we are not supposed to talk about who saved who, so I will let those illusions go.

Career expectations weren't looking too good for anyone at the old AAA in 2005. Enough said.

 

[crazystnic]

Yep accepted separate ops. usapa is unable to get a contract and the west NAC member just resigned. usapa and the east pilots this is your baby. Take care of it.

This train wreck is all yours.

this train wreck as you call it is fine with me and many other east pilots.
Attrition is coming very quickly and LOA 93 is fine with the attrition that we will have..

Why do you want to merger this angry group and put this thing together? Why are you not happy with what yoiu have and why do you want to take from US?

 

[Pi brat]

Career expectations weren't looking too good for anyone at the old AAA in 2005. Enough said.

Neither were the expectations of AWA pilots in 2005, or at least realistic ones. Time has shown where AWA was headed absent this merger.